For a 'best journalist/analyst,' Danielyan is using too many 'reportedly'-s, 'said to be'-s etc. Is it really too difficult to obtain proof of what he is saying, or at least present a coherent explanation? Or is it the attitude typical of the Armenian media: "why should I bother to investigate this further, if everyone on the street is saying the same thing?"

I am also surprised I haven't seen any journalist interviewing any of the participants of the February 4 gangfight. There were at least 100 of them, judging by video footage - is it really difficult to find at least one in Yerevan?

Do we have to clone Edik Baghdasarian and send a clone to all the media outlets in the country?

Hovakim,

How do you prove someone is guilty without taking them to court and in this case it is up to the prosecutor's office to do. Anyway, I'm going to back up Emil on this. We know who these people are and how they operate. It's not possible to prove, however, so therefore any objective journalist has to use the words 'reportedly' or 'allegedly' etc. There is another issue as well. If it's not true, then Emil can be taken to court or those mentioned can demand a retraction.

As for speaking to these people, it's very simple. The police have named some names and we know that these people were involved int he 5 April attacks on journalists (including myself). I saw PERSONALLY how the law worked then or rather it didn't. I also saw how the police ALLOWED these guys to beat up people and smash cameras despite requests for them to intervene.

What this story more indicates, in my opinion, is how many people don't understand what's actually happening in Armenia. Let's repeat again what has happened. The bodyguards of these oligarchs are out of control, the police are ineffective because they have no power against them and almost every pro-government AND pro-opposition paper AND politician is concerned about the situation. Even the President's Advisor on National Security has come out with a statement on the matter and I think that adds a lot of credibility to the story.

Besides, from a personal perspective, I can say that Emil's articles is also my reading of the situation. Perhaps even, Emil toned down what could have been said.

Cheers,

Or another issue, we do know that dozens have been rounded up by the police and Edik told me the same thing recently. Kocharian is that peeved with what happened (which in a way is good, of course). However, the POLICE have NOT named those involved apart from a few.

Anyway, this is such an important issue that really raises some concerns for the future and in particular, elections and the issue of succession. These guys, in my opinion, will kill to protect their wealth and influence.

And it's not just me saying this. A member of the ruling coalition, and once again from the ARF-D, is reported to have said the following today:

"A leading member of the governing Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) warned on Monday failure to ensure the freedom and fairness of Armenia’s forthcoming local elections could spark armed clashes between supporters of rival candidates.

[edited]

He said those clashes could be as serious as a February 4 gunfight between two business clans in Yerevan that left at least one person dead and several others wounded. It was the most massive shootout reported in Armenia in years. Dozens of its participants have reportedly been arrested or questioned by the police."

Full article on today's RFE/RL Armenia Report:
http://www.armenialiberty.org

BTW: As for Emil, I know him well and know how he works. Yes, he is perhaps the best and most professional journalist / analyst in Armenia. As for investigating, he's just one person but yes, he has said that he wishes he had the time to do so, especially as the rest of the media doesn't.

I'd be more concerned, however, with those media outlets that aren't reporting on this matter. Surprisingly, however, BOTH pro-government AND pro-opposition media outlets are concerned enough to be writing something.

Anyway, much more but in this case, it seems that few people are NOT saying anything about these incidents. Whether the Diaspora wants to believe it is another matter and largely irrelevant. For one, however, it would appear that all political parties and media outlets are concerned by the incident. Nobody is disputing what happened.

What isn't happening, however, is the police informing people as to those they've pulled in for questioning and who they were working for. What is also unknown is whether the government can now attempt to control the oligarchs if they don't agree to work within the law.

Again, how difficult it is to track down at least one participant in the gunfight and interview him? And why wait until the police name them? That's Yerevan we are talking about, not some privacy-obsessed country - how difficult it is to find these people?

Yes, just about everybody seems to be interested in the story, but it surprises me why, 17 days after it happened, there's no plausible explanation about the event. Was it just a random fight over a girl that got out of hand(according to Haikakan Zhamanak)? Just a random shoot-out? Or was there a fight over minibus routes (according to Aravot and Hayots Ashkharh and everyone else)? Just what happened there?

You see, indignation over the terrible gunfight is easy. It's cheap - that's why everyone from pro-presidential politicians to extreme oppositionists condemn it. My prediction: the public interest in the story will die down soon and re-ignite again when something like that happens again. Unless a clear picture emerges.

As for allegations and proofs: government leaders have nothing to fear from reports like that about "reported links" between so-and-so in the private sector and such-and-such in the government. If the reporter doesn't go the extra step and show the link (e.g., do they spend vacations together; do their kids hang out together; anything), it become just a reporter's word against the politician's. Sure, we all know government is bad, but how bad is it? If you know specifics, a lot of follow-up questions pop up in people's minds, and not just in Armenia.

I understand the cynicism, that even if you find out and present the proof of tutelage, nothing will happen. Nothing may happen in Armenia, but I can assure you that these politicians are wary of their image in foreign capitals and among diaspora supporters. If an investigative piece shows credible information, it's difficult to dismiss it. If a purported analytical report is just a sounding board for the word on the street, it's not going to make a difference.

Who are these 3 parliamentary members who petitioned to have the detained gunfight participants released, as this article suggests?

http://www.azg.am/?lang=AM&num=2005022204

Might be a good clue.

I suppose you're right Hovakim although I don't know how easy it is to get close to these guys were involved. That said, I haven't tried and when Edik threatened to publish their names after they attacked journalists on 5 April 2004, one even went to see him.

On the other hand, at the trial of two of these guys, they intimidated journalists and witnesses inside and outside the court. That said, we should try and actually Emil says that he should investigate more closely but it's a matter of finding the time. On the other hand, it's news, Emil has analysed the situation and now it's up to either other journalists to take it further or more likely, the Prosecutor's Office to investigate.

All that said, every foreign circle knows who controls what here. It's just not so important to them. Karabagh and reform in the legislative field is (even if the laws don't work they are there and one day will function). Another example is the Carolann Najarian case. I've heard that the brother of a very senior government official is behind the guy who allegedly defrauded her (btw: I use the word "allegedly" because the court case is not over).

So, why aren't people naming him and his brother? If true it would really show how crooked the legal system is in this country especially when you hear who's brother he is. Yet, nobody is trying to prove it and nobody is mentioning the alleged links. Why?

Maybe people are scared, I don't know.

But as another example, look at what happens when you do try to name names. Edik tried to get the Mayor's Office to release information that by law should be in the public domain re. the carve-up of parks in Yerevan and the opening of cafes by officials and their relatives (for those of you in the Diaspora, forget if you think the owners of the cafes are normal business people, they're not).

However, altough the Mayor's Office has admitted that most of these cafes are illegal and that they should provide the information to Edik, they don't and say that this is because of orders "from above."

So, Edik goes to court -- many times -- and the judge sides with the Mayor's Office because he's had orders as well.

Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that yes, Hovakim, I agree with you but the law, along with proper police procedures and the media, is not functioning here. On the other hand, people like Edik are pushing the system to try to get the law to function and I suppose we have to try this more.

As for the reason, it's hard to say. There was a report by A1 Plus last week saying that some minivan drivers were protesting outside the Presidential Palace over a colelague who had been murdered. However, it's hard to say if this is connected or not because the news item was so poorly written / translated.

Emil says he wants to investigate one related story if he has the time and I've spoken to Edik about this shooting incident but he doesn't have the time. However, both say that they've heard word that Kocharian has ordered the round-up of dozens of the bodyguards in questions.

Therefore, remember, in most societies, there would also be an announcement or press release from the Government and certainly, the police. However, in Armenia, the police still haven't been forthcoming with any useful information and also, the TV media, from what I've seen, has largely ignored the story and certainly don't appear to be following it up.

On that basis alone, I'm thankful for Emil's article because someone has set the grounds for subsequent examination of the power and lawlessness of the oligarchs and their bodyguards in Armenia. On that basis, I don't see any populist agenda in the ARF-D's comments on the incident or their belief that a law on bodyguards is necessary. Instead, I think they understand what will happen at the time of the next elections if they are falsified.

Cheers,

I also agree with you that society will forget about the incident until the next time, just as they forgot about the same guys attacking journalists on 5 April and just as they forgot about a series of high profile assassinations and attempted assassinations between the close relatives of oligarchs sitting in Parliament and others. However, from what I've seen and heard in the 2 years since the Presidential and Parliamentary Elections, I consider that it is correct to assume that the power of the oligarchs is now out of control and that yes, they will engage in more firefights inthe forseeabel future and will resort to violence during elections that may threaten their financial existence. Soon, we will see if that's the case. Local elections? Possibly. They will control the levers for the Parliamentary Elections and certainly, I suspect that unless someone puts their foot down now, I don't suppose that 2006 or 2007 is going to be very pretty.

BTW:

> You see, indignation over the terrible gunfight is easy. It's cheap - that's why everyone from pro-presidential politicians to extreme oppositionists condemn it.

This in itself says a lot because generally, nobody seems to make a statement on anything of concern to society. In that sense, this is quite a turn up -- an event bringing with it condemnation from people that otherwise don't bother at all to appeal to public sensibilities.

Oh yeah, elections will be upon us soon and the real "free-for-all" between the government and the opposition on the one hand and also, and perhaps more interestingly, between those parties who supported Kocharian in the 2003 Elections and who now make up the coalition government and most of Parliament.

Anyway, personally, I'd like to know about the poor sod who was whacked outside my doorstep at the time of the Parliamentary Elections. Nobody knows and the police just stood around grinning and looking fat. Much to my chagrin, I didn't bother to do much more than ask as many people as I knew who might know. Nobody did or they were keeping quiet.

One more thing:

> Yes, just about everybody seems to be interested in the story, but it surprises me why, 17 days after it happened, there's no plausible explanation about the event.

In any NORMAL country where the rule of law actually means something, the police usually issue statements re. their investigation into what happens.

So, perhaps your question should be best directed at the police who are responsible for maintaining law and order and reporting to the public and the government on serious incidents such as this. Okay, let's forget Hovsepian's statement on Friday in which he -- as the General Prosecutor of Armenia -- challenged the official police statistics.

So, 17 days after the incident allegedly between the bodyguards of oligarchs and officials close to the government, we still don't know what happened even though a number of people have been arrested and every politician in the coalition government (I actually haven't heard a comment on this from the opposition) has spoken out about it.

Do you want to tell me what's not right here? The media not reporting the full details or the police seemingly remaining quiet. This can only led credibility and fuel to suspicions as to who did what and why. It also raises associated concerns such as what is actually of most importance in Armenia? The state and the laws that define it or those employed by people who can literally get away with murder?

In any normal country, a police statement would have been made and -- in transitional countries where deception is the norm -- at least a statement that sought to defelct public attention away from the incident. Instead, the police don't appear to have issued any thorough account of twhat happened and what they're doing. I certainly haven't seen anything on TV and there's been nothing on Armenialiberty.org.

Now do you want to talk about how easy it is to get to the bottom of this in a small country like Armenia and an even smaller city like Yerevan?

Though in a sense this is irrelevant to this particular case, there is a bit of relevancy to my encounter with the people involved with the shooting.

First of all, I was not in Armenia at the time of the shooting, so I didn’t have a chance to poke around and talk to people involved (I’m sure I know a few of them).

From what I understand, one of the people involved and probably the guy calling the shots I had a by chance meeting with last summer. He was also the same person who directed the March 5th attack on journalist that Onnik talked about.

Note that this guy didn’t know who I was and figured I was just one a common person since I was in the company of a person he knew.

Anyway, my by chance meeting gave me a first hand look at this guy, who without flinching talked about how if a particular person didn’t do what they wanted, they would kill him. I have no doubt what he said, he would do.

As for talking to one person involved, I am almost sure that they would say nothing and such information will have to wait to come from a court case, that is if we see one.