The argument on escaping military service is
valid, the basis is that when and if the dual
citizenship is available then the every able
bodied armenian in yerevan will purchase/obtain
the 2nd passport which then will render the
process of dragging this person into gulag, also known as armenian army quite difficult.

There are precedents to this, note the recent case
of the state university student who refused to
serve in the army on the basis of his russian
citizenship.At the end he managed to get out of
the situation despite the fact that he lives in
yerevan, attends state university full time and
has questionable links with russia.

The flip side is that I personally know quite a few armenians from yerevan who left, would like to come back short or long term, and can't because of
their army obligation.

This is a serious problem, and there isn't an easy
solution. I also happen to know quite a
few turks (sorry had to mention that) who left,
would like to go back to turkey and can't because
of their army obligation. Apparently in turkey
there is no escaping army no matter what
citizenship you hold. I also know of some south
korean guys, who are born in this country (U.S.)
and can't go back even though they don't speak the
language, have no signigicant links with their
homeland, but still considered south koreans and
will be arrested and sent to military upon
touching land in seoul incheon international
airport.

Having said that, I do admire the new georgian president for having the guts to introduce dual citizenship for all ethnic georgians within days of taking office. I would appreciate if someone can shed some light on specifics of this.

Tim

The Georgian precedent (although the Israeli "Right to Return" is perhaps more appropiate for Armenians) is interesting and I have to admit, that when Saakashvili did that I did state to quite a few people, "It's amazing. What the Diaspora thought Armenia should do, the Georgians are doing instead."

However, I think for local Armenian bigwigs the problem is more complicated. The Diaspora aslo represents a threat i.e. it's fine when the Diaspora wants to give money wothout any oversight but not so fine when they expect something in return and compete on the same turf. You can even see that in Diasporan investments in Armenia. Either they are in sectors of the economy that don't threaten the "money" in Armenia or they are investments in collaboration with the "money" in Armenia.

As everyone knows, and as many significant Diasporans have pointed out to me, you can't invest in Armenia unless you have the backing of someone in Government. I suppose the recent Carolann Najarian case, and the fact that it is believed that the relative of a senior member of the Government is behind the person alleged to have swindled her and her husband, even raises questions and doubts about that.

Anyway, the point is that the Georgian Diaspora are not as sizeable and potentially as influential as the Armenian Diaspora. Therefore, I suppose that the two are not exactly the same. It is hardly unlikely, for example, that the Georgian Diaspora could ever compete with the local Georgian population.

Re. Turkey and all that, sure, military conscription is a big issue and btw: I thank my lucky stars that the UK hasn't had conscription since before I was born (even though part of my family actually has a military background in England).

Incidentally, in 1997 I was in Diyarbakir doing some stuff on the Kurds and I visited one Kurdish village and one young guy had purposely shot himself through the hand to get out of the army. Okay, so it was a Kurd but even so, back then, the Kurds from local villages (so they said) were never stationed in what was then a state of emergency region so I discount the possibility that he did this to get out of fighting against his fellow minority.

Anyway, the point is that what we're talking about now is the lifting of a RESTRICTION on dual citizenship. I'm kind of interested, however. Was that restriction already lifted when Saakashvili made his statement or not? If not, and probably even if, what are the obligations expected from taking dual citizenship in Georgia?

Does anybody know?

As I see it the military service argument holds no weight in a discussion on dual citizenship. For if you are both an Armenian and a US citizen for example it does not exclude the fact that you are an Armenian citizen and are still obligated to serve in the military regardless of your other citizenship, being so the second you step in the airport you would still be taken to the army.

I have a question though, exactly how difficult is it to re-aquire Armenian citizenship. I am an Armenian citizen living in the US, and I want to visit in the short term, I havent been there since 1996, without having to serve in the army as of yet because of education, family etc.. but I intend on moving back permanently within 15 years, would getting my Armenian citizenship back be a problem if I were to drop it now for the US citizenship so that I wouldnt be drafted if I visited?

To be honest, Tigran, I have no idea but certainly, there are many issues that need to be sorted out re. citizenship and dual citizenship. I supose in 15 years it might be possible that Armenia doesn't have so much of a reliance on a conscript army, however. From what I gather, but I may be wrong, the intention in Georgia is to create a mainly professional army. I would imagine that eventually, the same will be true here as well. Until then, what is the score with actually paying to get out of military service. Didn't the Parliamentary Group on National Security devise some way that former and current citizens could pay to have the slate wiped clean or was that only to escape prosecution? Alternative service extended to others apart from religious minorities might also be a possible future eventuality but the pay will still be insufficient unless the economy improves enough to make salaries adequate. My wife's younger brother is currently in the army and he receives $4 (four!) a month, the lucky thing...

From day one, the debate on dual citizenship was framed by narrow-minded political considerations. The party in power back then, ANM, was concerned about granting dual citizenship would give political power to (presumably) pro-Dashnak Diaspora.

The military service is a moot issue as well. If you live in Armenia and are a male between 18 and 27, you are liable for military service. Then again, less than 50% of Armenian citizens in those age group served in the armed forces. The rest gets student, medical, and illegal deferments. So you don't have to be a foreign citizen to avoid military service. And for deserters and draft dodgers, the parliament recently passed a law to allow them to return to live in Armenia in exchange for monetary penalties.

It's just that with removal of ban on dual citizenship, certain laws and regulations need to be adjusted. For example, the right to vote and run for office can be restricted to residents of Armenia only (no more overseas balloting). It's how it's done in Israel for example. It makes no sense to disenfranchise Diaspora Armenians who lived in Armenia say for 5 years, and continue to extend franchise to Armenian citizens who have lived in Glendale for 15 years. The income tax and tax legislation can be adjusted as well to tax Armenian citizen's worldwide income (rather than in-residence income only like it is done today).

But in general, most OECD countries (including the United States) ban dual citizenship. It's just that such laws are not enforced in the U.S. I suspect that there are hundreds of thousands of Armenian citizens who are also citizens of another country. So, it's been happening anyway, why not legitimize it and deal with it.

Re Saakashvili and his good intentions, let's not get too excited. Are there any statistics on how many people have returned to Georgia since he came to power?

Well in 15 years serving in the army won't be a problem I wouldn't have any objections, I consider it my duty, I would just rather put off that duty for now, perhaps a bit selfish of me, but I just can't see dropping plans for higher education to go and serve right now. And yes they did devise a plan by which citizens over 27 living abroud pay 3,500 dollars as I can remember and they would be excused and not required to serve, but being as I am only 17 it doesn't help me much and from what I hear it is about $10,000 nowadays the informal way.
Now as for a professional army, in the far future, I think the smartest idea would be to have a core professional army but still keep the mandatory military service, perhaps only 1 year for all able bodied citizens reaching the age of 18, this way the population is kept primed and ready in case of any impending emergencies or problems, we are after all surrounded by Turks and can't possibly kiss as much A$$ as the Georgians.

Bari Gisher

Re. Sahakashvili, who's getting excited? Like I said, it's not like the Georgians are known for having a large Diaspora although it's interesting who he was specifically referring to. Those Georgians born outside of the Republic or those born inside but who left in the past ten years.

BTW: Yes, you can get deferrment for medical reasons but generally, like everything else, it costs. There are many cases of people being elligible for deferrment actually being drafted. What's probably more the case is that money matters.

Anyway, back on topic. It seems absurd to me to allow Diaspora Armenians the right to vote in Armenia without taking upon themselves the FULL requirements of citizenship, including permanent residency.

But basically, I am not against the idea of dual citizenship. As a British citizen I am used to it. However, I do believe that too many people think that as soon as the Constitutional restriction is lifted, it's all settled.

In fact, it's only just begun. Then, the law on citizenship needs to be altered or indeed a new one specifically for Diasporan Armenians would have to be drafted and passed by Parliament presumably after some heated debate in Armenian society.

Hi there,

I live in Sweden and I have a friend from Armenian who cant go back because of the military service, he is 22 years old. Do you have any ideas how to go back to Armenia for the purpose of getting a renewd passport and then return to Sweden again, WITHOUT getting caught and sent to military service?

This is a dilemma for him as he has everything in Sweden, education, girlfriends, friends and relatives. Anybody? Mail me or answer here?

Onnik: Saakashvili of course refers to Georgian
diaspora in Turkey. There are between 2 to 5
million ethnic georgians living there, depending
whos counting. There is also question of breakaway
republics, Osetias, and a huge Georgian diaspora
in Russia and Ukraine. It was a very shrewd
political move, but I haven't seen any statistics
at how many people if any at all have taken
advantage of it. Strangely enough I don't know a
single georgian so I can't ask direct.

Hovakim: Good points re ANM politics and LTP's anti-dashnak obsession. Do you think they will seriously look into israeli model now, that there seems to be pressure to resolve it one way or another ?

I never knew about a Georgian Diaspora in Turkey. Interesting. Any info on the internet you can point me towards?

Cheers,

Sure, the first link is a history of north caucasian diaspora in turkey is estimating the number at 2 mln
http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rsd/+gwwBmesEJ69wwwwowwwwwwwtFqtR1GAnOcFqo-uPPyER0MFmqDFme26btqt2IygZfpzmqwwwwwww3zmmwwwwwwwGFqmRu2BFqr20-fN-Z/rsddocview.html

the second link is a russian source, is estimating the number at 5 mln
http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_243792.php

truth of the matter is that very few of these
peoples consider themselves georgian, they are
abkhaz, adjars, svans, adyghe and lezgin. there is
an insignificant amount of kartvel (proper georgians), mostly recent migrants.

the trick saakashvili is pulling is saying look,
you can have a georgian citizenship automatically
and as such perhaps you will stop breaking the
country into pieces. Also, the dual citizenship
should help them with the recent russian crackdown
on travel, if you remember russians singled out
georgia and started demanding proper visas, which
does not sit well with russian-georgian
community.

Armenia has different dymanics, thats why I am not
so sure they are going to move ahead with the dual
citizenship laws this year.

T

Tim,

You raise an interesting point re. the constitutional ammendments. One theory last from 2003 was that the Government was so concerned with the Parliamentary Elections that they didn't even have the time to be concerned with whether the ammendments were passed.

Of course, another explaination is simply that they didn't care. Let's see. It's interesting.

Firstly, to Emin, I can't think of anything your friend can do besides establishing some midlevel connections in the Defense Ministry and paying himself through.

As for the "Georgian Diaspora" in Turkey, if in fact there are up to 5 million "Georgians" they would all practically have to be Muslims if I am correct, the last time I checked 99.8% of the population is Muslim and the ethnic breakdown is estimated at 80% Turkish to 20% Kurdish. As far as I see it these people aren't Georgian and wouldn't have much of an interest in returning to their supposed homeland.

For the military laws in Armenia, check the Ministry of Defence web site at www.mil.am

As an armenian Born outside Armenia. I long for the day that I can be allowed to move back to Armenia.with out the thought of having to apply as an Immegrant. There are thousands of Armenians living out side Armenia the would bring not only the financial influx to Armenia but also Work experiance and Knowledge the is lacking .In reflection to the homeless a growing Issue In Yerevan. An Example of what can be done is in Calgary, Alberta Canada where a huge facility for the homeless was built in down town Calgary it includes temporary bedding for the homeless counsellors drug rehab and much more.
thank you

Abkar Bannayan
Calgary, Alberta
Canada