A Quiet Reflection
You may or may not be aware that I have not posted here in a while. I just thought I’d pass some reflection on what has happened in Armenia over the past few days. Forgive me for the emotive nature of this post, but I’d appreciate anyone elses thoughts. I realise the elections were not perfect, but if this has shown anything, it has shown that stability is indeed what we need for Armenia at this time.
I arrived home from work at a bar at about 3am UK time, BBC News 24 was on the TV, I cast my eyes over to see a burning car, gunshots and/or petrol bombs. I had to shake some sense into myself as I couldnt believe that the caption underneath read “State of Emergency Declared in Armenia”. What an incredible sinking feeling, I don’t think I will forget that.
OK, so we see this all the time. We see it in Paris, we see it in Palestine, we see it in Iraq, Georgia, and (often with a quiet shake of the head) we see it in Turkey. Usually, the inbuilt Armenian arrogance kicks in and I shake my head and say to myself ‘whatever Armenia is, this wouldn’t happen there ‘… Now I guess I don’t have that safety net. It does happen there, and it makes me feel utterly sick.
Perhaps it’s because I have held Armenia, and Armenians up on a pedestal for far too long. We are just like anyone else, we do eat , and go to the toilet like any other race. We have criminals, and we have riots, we have drug addicts, and we have alchoholics.
What I can’t accept is the thought of Armenians fighting each other. It just doesn’t work for me. It hurts, it’s like watching two members of your family hitting each other. It just shouldn’t happen, it makes you want to look away.
It hurts to see soldiers who have worked to protect what we value and boast about so greatly, just attacked by drunks or brainwashed civilians lulled into a false sense of “revolution”.
It hurts to see the city which we have watched grow and develop into a pleasant, safe environment to be left so bruised and tattered.
To the average European watching the news, we are just another backward, ‘revolution’ driven former Soviet republic, that still cannot understand the concept of an election.
It hurts because we always managed to stay away from this, and it hurts even more that I , and many other Armenians around the world, feel helpless to stop it.
I am sorry to disappoint you, but we never stayed away from this, I mean your illusion that armenian does not hurt armenian. Throughout history we were divided nation: between greeks and persians, romans, ottomans and russians, russians and americans. We never relied on ourselves. Always part of our nation was looking toward east, while the other was looking west. We often invited others to settle scores among us and then complaint of being invaded. We must learn to manage our affairs ourselves, not to leave it in the hands of others. At the moment I do not want to judge the sides of the conflict, but one thing is undeniable: during the last 10 years current administration handed keys of the republic to Russians, and the only gratification of that is that they got to keep their positions and grab the rest of the economy to themselves. It is not just petty corruption, it is surrender of our hard gained independence. No wonder there are individuals, who risk their career and life to disagree.
Comment by GT — 3/4/2008 @ 6:08 am
One thing is not yet clear to me: did LTP know that people had died for his cause, when he made the recording saying that troops have outnumbered his demonstrators and that the demonstrations should end, or something to that effect?
Even if recording it under duress, did he try to save his own skin, when people supporting him died for his quest “up until the end???”
My second question regarding his judgement: when he did not get the velvet revolution he was hoping for, did it really not occur to him that the current authorities had no scruples about using deadly force on their own people? Or is it possible that like the current authorities, LTP’s respect for fellow compatriot’s life ends at the beginning of his political skin?
Finally, as to his legitimacy: after Bagdasarian joined the ruling coalition, did he not have the judgement to call his rallies off, since his claim to any plurality victory was totally invalidated, and that it could give the authorities the legal excuse to use force, since LTP’s claim to legitimacy was totally abrogated? Where was his judgement, conscience, patriotism, etc???
I think the events of the last four days will set Armenia’s economy back for several years, since its image of stability, predictability, credit worthiness, investment suitability, and a hope for some semblance of the rule of law have been sooooo set back.
God help Armenia.
Comment by hratch — 3/4/2008 @ 7:05 am
Thank you for posting your thoughts. You described almost exactly what I’ve been feeling since I found out about the events of this past weekend in Armenia about 24 hours ago. It was very, very refreshing to hear (or read) something other than angry/hateful words directed either at “Serj” or “Levon.” I, too, apparently naively, thought that these kind of events could not, would not happen in Armenia. I don’t know if I should ascribe this to Armenian “pride” or simply wishful thinking. After all, the days of communist repression were long over. Now we had a free, independent, democratic Armenia, ruled by elected Armenian (not Russian, Turkish or Azeri)officials. In fact, I was hoping to visit Armenia soon and dreaming about one day moving there. What makes this especially painful for me is that I was born in Armenia and spent my childhood there. My family left Hayastan because of the Communist oppression. We always dreamed that if ever Armenia was free, we could, conceivably, move back to our homeland. Recently, my father spent over a year in Armenia and returned from there just this past September. He was planning on returning this month. Now I don’t want him to go back. I don’t even want to visit Armenia, and I don’t know when I’ll dream about living there again. If I, an Armenian from Armenia, have these feelings because of these latest events, I shudder to imagine what non-Armenians must be thinking. I also don’t want to think about how our international reputation as a nation will be damaged. If anyone, especially a non-Armenian, was thinking about investing in Armenia, they will probably seriously reconsider their plans now. Our nation’s Genocide recognition efforts, too, might be hampered by this. And, of course, many Armenians might seriously consider packing their bags and moving out of Armenia. I feel frustrated and very, very sad right now. I am doing the only thing I can do, and that is to pray for peace and mutual understanding in Armenia. To pray that the two battling political forces will find a way to really talk instead of only casting blame; and that our people will realize, once and for all, that violence and hatered towards other Armenians will bring nothing but ruin to our collective goals and desires.
Comment by Lucy — 3/4/2008 @ 8:09 am
Yes, you are right all nationa have issues so does Armenia. Everyone knew this and we were living with that fact. But the igniting factor in Armenia was a widespread and intolerable election fraud.That is the fundamental issue here. i think some chnage are in order here even possibly a re-election.
Comment by Varouj — 3/4/2008 @ 7:53 pm
Dear fellow Armenians:
Many thanks to you all for caring and spending time to post messages, I read them all, my agreement or disagreement is not relevant at all.
My family went through a brutal revolution in Iran, we lost lives, homes, money, health, you name it and we pulled through, because “Iranian believed in democracy”, not to mention that mixing religion and politics is disasterous and unfortunately Iran fell a century back, if not two.
However, this is not a case with Armenia. I have been working in International Developemnt field for the past 25 years, traveled around the world, worked in the villages and mainly contributed my life to Armenia for the past 6 years building villages (you will never hear about me, as I keep a low profile), I know ARMENIAN people from inside out, I lived in the villages, I also know ANOTHER SET OF ARMENIAN people who will do anything to give the GOOD ones a bad name, after all “IT TAKES ONE BAD APPLE”. I have eye witnesses from front line (my Diaspora friends who joined the good crowd) who attested that all protestors in Mashdots and Republic square were polite, courteous, no violation, no gun fires, just expressing their anger through chanting, my friend said, and I quote “if this protestors were in Glendale or any other city in U.S., there would have been a blood shed”. On the other hand, a large group of “who knows from where” hired by the government (second hand information)looted all supermarkets and stores in Gomidas.
Now, think about it… people are out marching for one reason “DEMOCRACY”.
Our sisters lost their husbands, mothers lost their sons, children lost their fathers to free “Karabagh”, what have we gained in return, not a pat in the back, but a TANK in front of innocent people. They should learn from Iranian army, when all and each one, put their weapons down and joined the crowd.
From a professional stand point, I replace government of Armenia in the same level of “Nigeria” (the world’s worst corrupted government). From a personal stand point, my passion and compassion resides with people and I could careles about the government and public administration and all government machinery who are a group of cold hearted”blood sucker”, serving their own agenda. It should be noted that only a hand full honest public servers suffering under this regime, my advise to them : TURN IN YOUR RESIGNATION TODAY.
Armenia is suffering from “dependency” phenomena from Western donors and Diaspora, we never taught Armenia “how to fish to feed self”, we have been giving them “fish” for the past 16 years.
My point being, from an International Development stand point, DO YOUR SHARE to teach the government a valuable lesson and have western aids to pull the plug, until RULE OF LAW and DEMOCRACY is in place, raise your voice and write to the source:
The White House
U.S. State Department Secretary of State
Millenium Challenge Corporation ($236 MILLION dollar given to the government to implement project, contingent to RULE of LAW and DEMOCRACY)
Millenium Challenge Account in Armenia
USAID in Armenia
U.S. Ambassador in Armenia
ALL WESTERN AMBASSADORS in Yerevan
THE WORLD BANK
IMF
EUROPEAN COUNCIL
OSCE
ADB
JICA
These are organizations with power to put pressure on the government, while people play a vital role in democracy, donor’s have the influence to change a government (e.g., Georgia, Ukraine, Brazil).
In closing, DO NOT JUDGE people from miles and miles away in U.K., U.S. or any other country, living a good life, it’s always easy said than done. If you are a DIASPORA, it’s time to move forward, our motherland is not about a lavish life style which is portrayed in Republic Square, Abovyan, Nalbandian, Sayat Nova surrounding, Armenia is about PEOPLE and their fight for FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.
Please do me and others a favor, DO NOT PASS ANY JUDGEMENT, you want to judge, buy a ticket and go to the middle of the action, see for yourself, that’s what I will be doing in two weeks.
We, as diaspora are at great fault, after all, we contributed to a “corrupt” government with over 1.5 billion dollars of contribution and never asked for “transparency”.
Thank you all for your love and care for Armenia, put your actions to word and start your own revolution to FIGHT CORRUPTION and dedicate yourself to build a village.
Jermoren
Comment by Hilda — 3/4/2008 @ 8:21 pm
Dear Lucy:
I share your thought, feelings, sadness and concerns. We, as Armenians always worry about the outside world and their reaction. What difference does it make “who thinks what” and do you honestly believe that our reputation is tarnished by “protesting for DEMOCRACY”, I can assure you it is not.
I have discussed Armenia events with higher ranking American and other western individuals who have a vast knowledge about Armenia, they applaude people for their action, but not the GoA for killing innocent people, after all killing two children with “ELECTRIC SHOCK” doesn’t go into Human Rights history book.
Dear Lucy; People are taking action, enough of words, they are fed up, have you ever travelled through rural villages to witness poverty, unemployment, despair, depression, I have, it’s not a pleaseant scene, I witnessed young Armenian girls walking the streets in DUBAI to earn a living…..put them all together, this is “21st century genocide”.
In your prayers, please ask GOD to grant a vision to our DIASPORA community members to understand the importance of PEOPLE in rebuilding Armenia. Millions of dollars are collected every year to do what? rebuild dysfunctional roads and spend over 2.0 million dollars to renovate a public park, across from Presidential Estate.
Armenia is as small or as big as STATE OF MARYLAND, it doesn’t take millions and billions to rebuild the motherland, it takes UNITY and thorough understanding of INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT to set priorities and work with PEOPLE to rebuild the motherland.
Be proud of our people and pray for them to win this battle, our sisters and brothers have only ONE AMMUNITION, THEIR VOICE and they will prevail.
May God continue to bless Armenia and people
Comment by Hilda — 3/4/2008 @ 8:56 pm
Dear Lucy:
I share your thought, feelings, sadness and concerns. We, as Armenians always worry about the outside world and their reaction. What difference does it make “who thinks what” and do you honestly believe that our reputation is tarnished by “protesting for DEMOCRACY”, I can assure you it is not.
I have discussed Armenia events with higher ranking American and other western individuals who have a vast knowledge about Armenia, they applaude people for their action, but not the GoA for killing innocent people, after all killing two children with “ELECTRIC SHOCK” doesn’t go into Human Rights history book.
Dear Lucy; People are taking action, enough of words, they are fed up, have you ever travelled through rural villages to witness poverty, unemployment, despair, depression, I have, it’s not a pleaseant scene, I witnessed young Armenian girls walking the streets in DUBAI to earn a living…..put them all together, this is “21st century genocide”.
In your prayers, please ask GOD to grant a vision to our DIASPORA community members to understand the importance of PEOPLE in rebuilding Armenia. Millions of dollars are collected every year to do what? rebuild dysfunctional roads and spend over 2.0 million dollars to renovate a public park, across from Presidential Estate.
Armenia is as small or as big as STATE OF MARYLAND, it doesn’t take millions and billions to rebuild the motherland, it takes UNITY and thorough understanding of INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT to set priorities and work with PEOPLE to rebuild the motherland.
Be proud of our people and pray for them to win this battle, our sisters and brothers have only ONE AMMUNITION, THEIR VOICE and they will prevail.
May God continue to bless Armenia and people
Comment by Hilda — 3/4/2008 @ 8:56 pm
It’s not about Armenians fighting Armenians, it’s all about corruption and injustice. You should be living in this country to know that you should not judge the people of this country from 2000 miles away. And F.Y.I. I happened to be amongst the crowd that night when they burnt the cars and NOT a single person was drunk and they are definately NOT brainwashed, all they ask for is Unity and Justice. F.Y.I. again, we were around those markets that were published the following day in the news media as having been looted and vandalized and take it from me that none of that happened that night, at least not until 2am while we were there.
Comment by Caroline — 3/4/2008 @ 10:25 pm
I was sad to hear and see all this turmoil happening in Hayastan. Look to other former Soviet republics, they are in the same boat. Today, it was in the news that Russians are protesting their elections (same way, burning this and that, but they are big power they can afford it, not us Armenians). This is the result of dictatorship that was there for 70 years and on top of that, not having a country/government for hundreds of years. Whether it’s Levon, Robert, or Serj is not going to bring change. Change and improvement starts with all of us. Corruption has become part of the life in Armenia thanks to Soviet regime. That’s how people survived for 70 years under their “glorious” rule. Let’s not be a toy in the hands of big powers. Unless we are educated politically and socially, this will happen to us over and over.
Let’s not lose our country once again. Destroying is easy, building asks for great effort and sacrifice.
Comment by Arax — 3/5/2008 @ 12:24 am
Why are so many people so Naive.
Armenia, despite the problems placed upon it from our Turkic and Georgian neighbours, is one of the best performing nations from the CIS, in terms of media freedom (please look at stats with other CIS states), in terms of economic liberalism, in terms of economic growth (having double digit growth for so long, which isnt based on some sort of fossil fuel.
All these achievements have come in the last 10 years.
What did Levon give us?
-Energy Crisis
-Rampant Corruption
-Political Murders (thanks Vano)
-Oligarchs (yes, it was LEVON who gave us the oligarchs)
- A blundering Foreign Policy of giving concessions on Kharabagh when we had the strong hold. Thousands died for Levon to sell their blood? Again he does the same for his political power with these poor protestors.
-BALLOT STUFFING AND ELECTION RIGGING (remember this is why he was KICKED from power)
-Yes, there are MANY MANY problems, but bringing the country on its knees wont help
-Dividing this small nation wont help
If after all that, you still believe in Levon, you are either completely brainwashed, or you have no faith in the armenian system, and hope throuigh anarchy and chaos, there will be a new utopia.
Yes, the elections were rigged, BUT these were the BEST elections we have EVER had. why dont people realise this.
instead, we follow a donkey of a leader, who instead of recognizing this progress, uses the publics emotions, for his own political gain. WHO GOT KICKED OUT OF GOVERNMENT FOR ELECTION RIGGING in 1998??
Its funny, and sad, to hear people talking of independence being brilliant, yet on the other hand, writing nice little letters to charities in the EU and US, and organisations in the west who are nothing but tools for the wests geopolitical interests, for their “help”. Get over it, we are a new country, we need to be constructive and build our country.
As for this being “people power”, you have lost the plot. Levon, regardless of ballot stuffing, was NEVER going to win this election, unless 20% of votes shifted from Serj, to Levon. I.e. All of those huge 20% went to levon, and not any of the other 7 candidates. All these in a condition of “most fair” elections. Just because you dislike Serj, doesnt mean you can automatically call the elections a complete fraud if he wins. Levon didnt think he was going to win, why do you??
Reasons why Levon didnt win:
- Calling himself winner before votes were counted, he knew he wasnt going to win, so he had to rally up people already in preperation for rallies. He had called for a “victory rally” days before the election date himself.
- He had clearly spoken to influential politicians before the vote, so they could change sides, after he “won”. Notice how Manvel et al werent complaining when they were guzzling the peoples funds in previous elections, sudddenly Manvel has become a champion of free elections has he? (Please read into the background of Manvel Grigorian)
-These protests were TINY, if they are any sort of reflection of what voter turnout was. the protests averaged 25,000, thats including the 30-50,000 and the 10,000 turnouts which were there. that represents between 1-5% of Yerevan, that is truly pitiful. Lets not forget how it was common that many people simply went down to see what was happening…
Yes, there clearly would have been agent provaceurs from the state in the crowds, but to deny that any protestors had ANY weapons is ridiculous. No government in the West would have allowed a single piece of wood as a weapon, as they would have smashed the entire protest down.
Lets remember
-Seattle, where unarmed protestors were smashed to bits
-Genoa, where throwing a fire extinguisher equalled that protestor being shot in the head by police
-all G8 demos since.
-lets not forget how Western governments REGULARLY use agent provaceurs in demonstrations.
-Which government would allow illegal demonstrations, holding the capital to ransom for 10 DAYS????
this is our country, armenia, which isnt to be used for experiments of peoples dreams for what they want armenia to be in 24 hours.
If you want to improve our country, work there, participate there, pay taxes there, vote there.
Yes, armenia has rampant corruption (much much less than before, e.g. police), yes there are oligarchs (but remember how the US allowed oligarchs in the early 20th Century to help boost the countries economy), yes there is election rigging (but they have been the best we’ve ever had, and something many CIS states can only dream of).
Armenia is one of the quickest developing CIS countries, lets not let opportunists stop this.
Constructive criticism, and participation, instead of opportunist political gains and jeopordising the growth of this young country.
Comment by HyeFella — 3/5/2008 @ 1:40 am
I was an international observer in the Georgian Presidential elections in 2003 in Ajara (just outside of Batumi). I lived in Tbilisi at the time. I was in the Georgian Rose Revolution. I think I can safely say I was the only Armenian American in that crowd, for three weeks, in the rain and cold. I watched a series of very unlikely events unfold. And yet, the time was ripe. Obviously, it has been a bumpy road since then, but the point applicable here is that people CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
I watched as early in 2004 Armenians tried to emulate the Rose Revolution in Yerevan. I tried to stand in the protests–only to be turned away by soldiers bearing automatic weapons. The tactic in Yerevan, unlike in Tbilisi, was to cordon off the protest area and wait for those inside the circle to get tired and leave. No new protests were allowed. (Note: the option to leave and rejoin the protests made a HUGE difference in Tbilisi.)
I am not pro-LTP. I am definitely not pro-Serge either. But, I am pro-democracy, pro-human rights. Armenians who LIVE with the corruption, every day, and don’t just hear about it abstractly in a quarterly Diasporan newsletter, those people who face direct oppression DESERVE to be heard. They deserve to peacefully protest without being MURDERED.
This isn’t about parties. This is about respecting human rights GUARANTEED by Armenia’s constitution. I believe Caroline (post #8) when she says that the protests were peaceful. That was my experience in Yerevan in 2004, as well.
The call for “stability” promotes a return to the stifling oppression that Armenians have endured since the USSR era, which spilled over into “independence.” The country may be free, but the people are not.
Let’s say you agree with the emergency rule–that you’ve bought into the idea that demonstrators started the violence. Can you rationalize the shutdown of all independent media? Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty has even been shut down! Is that necessary? Only if there’s something to hide…
The government of Armenia needs to know that the power lies with the people, NOT in a corrupt web of seasoned criminals.
What can be done?
Hilda hit it pretty much on the head with post #5. This strategy of using international pressure is what was more or less employed in Georgia. The Soros Foundation actually funded a huge portion of the necessary costs to keep protests on the streets for three weeks.
Whether or not you agree with the Georgian example, or whether or not you think that LTP should replace Serge Sargsyan, is not the issue here.
Stand up for the people who are being silenced. Help them voice what they want for their own country. The time is ripe, and they deserve nothing less.
Comment by Ursula — 3/5/2008 @ 5:44 am
It is really sad situation in Armenia. Fundamental Human Rights of the citizens have been and are violated widely. It is also very dangerous in a sense that the people may loose already very weak trust to the government or sense of citizenship. This struggle is not for Levon or Serge - this is about corruption, and cheating its own people. Some people ask “how come we did not have anything broken or stollen during 1988-1990 - the answer is because even then and even the Sovet government did not attack people for peaceful meetings.
I pray and wish that we come out of this situation quickly. I am very shamed for my government, especially for the speaker of the parliament who speaks about being honest and true. Hope he knows and undersands the meaning of this words.
God bless Armenia.
Comment by sns — 3/5/2008 @ 9:06 am
Please don’t watch the H1 Armenian first public TV channel. It makes me sick in the stomach when I watch that channel. Lies, lies, lies… No news, just prising the government! Are there any journalists out there???
Comment by sns — 3/5/2008 @ 9:10 am
folk, i do appreciate your conserns… what i dont understand, is the concept that its ok, that armenians live under the rule of a “king” being slaves in their homeland for the sake of some stereotipes in the mined of people living outside of armenia to be ture… de lav eli…when my kid needs to go to school and the education system is totally dead, when people die because of poor healthcare system…in fact i do advice you to come and get services from regular armenian hospitals, you’ll be robbed, and at the end be in a worse situation that before coming to the hospital. i believe never an armenian elite person’s jeep went over you and at the end you were blamed of not being carefull… the fact is that armenian nation is gaining back its lost fase. and lastly, i ma not a supporter of ltp and this is not about one individual, it is about change, armenia is not a kingdom, it is a democracy or at least it will be sometimes…ard people living in armenia are not slaves they are indipendent people at every patience has a limit… people cannot be subpressed forever. what i am very sorry about is that there is no alternative leader to lead the people…
please think twice before giving your wise advice, please consider that your nice words and justificaitons can be used at some point to subpress the same type of people that you identify yourself with - the indipendent and proud armenian
p.s. its not osce, not putin or other big guy who shall decide who shall be our leader, we, the independent armenians decide…
Comment by arsen — 3/5/2008 @ 10:07 am
Dear Hilda,
Thank you for your comments addressing mine. Please know that I agree with most of what you wrote in your comments addressed to me. Also, please let me reassure you that I am EXTREMELY PROUD of those of our people who were PEACEFULLY protesting, regardless of who they were supporting or what they were claiming. I live in a country where peaceful protests, with permission from the appropriate authorities, are allowed and often practiced by various groups, including the Armenians. I myself have not only participated in many peaceful protests for the freedom of the people of Armenia (before they had that freedom), as well as other pro-Armenian protests such as those held on April 24th, I have also organized one in a non-Armenian setting and delivered the keynote address–again in defense of Armenian-related issues, which received coverage in Armenian and non-Armenian media. I say this not to brag, but to convince you that I am not only not against the right of any person to protest to further the cause of liberty, justice, or democracy, but I have proven it with my actions in the past.
I also agree with you that that democracy needs to be furthered in Armenia. I know about the corruption and nepotism practiced by the higher-ups. I know better than you would think I might know about the poverty in the rural areas because I have relatives who live in those areas–relatives my family often helps, in addition to knowing about it from Armenian and non-Armenian media. I also completely understand that the people are fed up and they are taking action. My problem is not with people being fed up and doing something about it.
What I was referring to, when I said, “the events of this past weekend,” which I thought would be perfectly clear to the readers, were the burning of the cars, the looting of the shops, and the deaths of the 8 people (or possibly more), as well as the injuries to many others, and the prevailing mood of complete hatred towards other Armenians with whom people disagreed (please see Harmick’s original post to which my comments were related). I also read reports about excessive use of force by the police and beatings of innocent protesters who were running away. These are the things that sadden me, not the fact that the people, who have had enough, were protesting peacefully.
And you’re right, Hilda, the diaspora, too, needs prayer and at least I have been praying for many of these issues for many years now. There are numerous difficulties in the diaspora which I am well aware of since I live in the diaspora. One, and only one, of the difficulties faced by the diasporan Armenians is prejudice against them by non-Armenians. Depending on which country we’re talking about, diasporan Armenians face prejudice, discrimination, and sometimes outright violence against them, such as those who live in Russia, Iraq or Turkey. When non-Armenians, who are not fond of Armenians living in their countries to begin with, see violence in the streets of Yerevan, no matter who is responsible for it or why, it causes them to become even more anti-Armenian and justify these feelings, and Armenians who live abroad suffer as a result. And this is also one of the reasons why we should be concerned about what non-Armenians think about our actions.
There are a number of other reasons why we should be concerned about what non-Armenians think which I won’t go into now–I did mention some of them in my original comments, as did Hratch in his comments–only we should all remember that Armenia is now part of the global community of nations and it can only harm the interests of Armenia as a country to be known for violence or political instability.
Please allow me to disagree with you about the diasporan Armenians not understanding about the importance of the people in rebuilding Armenia. The diasporan Armenians not only build roads but help the people of Armenia through various means, even if it is just by sending financial help to their own relatives who live there, on a regular basis. I also know of hundreds, maybe thousands of diasporans who help orphans in Armenia, every single month. There is a lot more that Armenian diasporans do for the people of Armenia, which, again, I won’t go into. True, more needs to be done to teach the people of Armenia how “to fish,” but in the meantime, I think you would have to agree that if aid from the diaspora (and foreign governments or agencies, for that matter) was cut, the people of Armenia would be suffering multiplied times more than they are now.
Also, please allow me to disagree with you about your opinions on Gharabagh. I will not elaborate, except to say that I don’t believe we can build a true democracy in Armenia by pinning the Armenians in Armenia and the Armenians in or from Gharabagh against each other. You and I, Hilda, may both want democracy in Armenia, but we may also have widely divergent views of what democracy actually means and how to achieve it. I think you’ll agree that I am entirely free to have my own opinions, even if they are different from yours, about any of the issues we’re discussing here. Freedom of thought and speech are the basics of any true democracy. You and I can agree to disagree about a number of issues without deeming each other enemies or allowing hatered against one another to seep into our hearts–which, by the way, was one of the points in my original comments.
Regarding living however many thousands of miles away and “judging” the people of Armenia–again, please understand that those of us who are not living in Armenia, are entitled to have our own opinions. That doesn’t mean that we are “judging” anyone. Also, some actions and events, because of their very harmful and shameful nature, need to be condemned by everyone, including those of us who live far from Armenia. Please remember, too, that many of us have access to information about Armenia (and its people) at the push of a button, that might surprise many who live in Armenia.
Regarding the opinion of “higher-ranking American individuals” whom you mentioned, about the latest events in Armenia, here is a direct quote from the
New York Sun newspaper:
“America ‘deeply regrets’ the unrest in Yerevan, and ‘calls on all sides to avoid further violence, act fully within the law, exercise maximum restraint, and resume political dialogue,’ spokesman Sean McCormack (of the United States State Department) said Saturday in comments posted on the State Department’s Web site. ‘We hope that the state of emergency declared today will be lifted promptly and that political dialogue resumes’.”
Here is another direct quote from another Western “higher-up”:
“A senior diplomat representing the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said on Monday that both the Armenian government and the radical opposition are to blame for the bloody post-election unrest in Yerevan and urged them to embark on a ‘political dialogue.’”
And here is a third one:
“A leading international human rights organization has demanded that the Armenian government launch a ‘prompt and independent investigation’ into the bloody confrontation between security forces and opposition demonstrators in Yerevan that left at least eight people dead.”
As you can see, Hilda, it isn’t that difficult to find out what the Western “higher-ups” think and quote them here, especially for someone who has worked as a consultant/researcher, for the past
16 years.
In conclusion, I am very proud of the GOOD people of Armenia who know how to do the Right things in the Right way. I hope and pray that the number of these people in Armenia will increase and civility, mutual respect, as well as peace and justice in the framework of TRUE DEMOCRACY will reign in our country.
Comment by Lucy — 3/5/2008 @ 2:35 pm
Im not sure how people are calling for “democracy”, yet they dont support LTP.
Firstly, Serge WON the election, he may not have got 52% but he certainly got the most votes. Im sure he stuffed enough ballots to get over the important 50% mark. So in terms of democratic values, he won the election. Had the election been in the UK, then there would be no need for a run off, and Serge would have won the election, giving some votes to LTP (who got 21%) and Bahgdasarian (who got 17%).
Secondly, im not quite sure what the point of calls for government change are, if they are just for the sake of it. If you dont support LTP, calls for change are de facto calls for LTP, so im not sure why people on here say they are supporting the riots, but they dont support LTP. Politics is not happening in a vacuum, if the rioters won, then we would have had LTP in power, who, IS WORSE THAN SERGE.
again, i re-iterate, no-one in their right mind suggest serge is a brilliant, clean, progressive leader, but he is the better of the two candidates. So yes, i would rather have stability, and it has nothing to do with some sort of Soviet Time call for stability and repression, its called wanting the best for the Armenian people who have suffered enough.
Thirdly, do people in the Diaspora even know how their own governments treat people at demonstrations?? Does anyone remember MayDay in UK around 2004-5? where police made a wall of police around demonstrators, not allowing anyone to come into the circle of demonstrators.
And even when a few too many people were leaving in one stint, they even stopped allowing people leaving until, the last batch had dispersed already. People were urinating in bottles in humiliating circumstances, just for the right to demonstrate.
Armenian police have been IMPECABLE relative to western states, and the fact that Armenia is still developing, and doesnt have all the tools to calm people down peacefully. What other country has allowed citizens to throw molotov cocktails, without being immediately arrested and put in jail for years???
Fourthly, yes, there should be free independent media, but Free Europe certainly isnt free, and simply carries out the wishes of the US and promotes the idea of the “New World Order”. Im not convinced that taking such vile propaganda hasnt been one of the better outcomes of the unrest.
Its amusing to see how certain people support a free independent Armenia, then call for outside money from those who support a certain political stance, to send them money to uphold these protests, which as has been discussed, were never representative of the Armenian people. 25,000 people is nothing.
Comment by HyeFella — 3/5/2008 @ 2:43 pm
I assume this is how Armenian Police should deal with protestors so our dear friends in the Spyurk dont pour scorn over how the country is run…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1460036.stm
or search for any outcome of the last 5 G8 demos.
Armenia is not perfect, not by a long shot. But many of the problems are out of its hands
-New Country (and poor govt structures)
-War
-Blockade
-Corruption due to being a new country
Lets not judge Armenia on utopian levels. Armenia has seen HUGE progress, politically and economically, there are so many reports from groups like OSCE, UNHD, EU showing vast improvements, give it another few years, AND PARTICIPATE in the reforms, then we can improve. Not by giving power to the power hungry.
Comment by HyeFella — 3/5/2008 @ 2:54 pm
Such events as took place in Yerevan during the past two weeks culminating in the bloody assault by the police on defenseless protestors sreve to highlight the deep social divsions in the Armenian society; cleavages that many in Armenia, including the ruling regme, and romantic Spyurkahyes would rather turn a blind eye to. As an eyewitness to the rallies and marches, involving tens of thousands of ordinary Armenian citizens that went on for ten days WITHOUT INCIDENT….I say shame on all those who would rather speak of the faults of LTP and how mislead and manipulated the people were..This was a movement bigger than LTP. It was an outpoutring of frustration and discontent regarding the status quo in Armenia. The people had no other recourse but to take to the streets in protest. If many of you feel ashamed or discomforted by this fact, please accept the apologies of the thousands who are at fault. Another election was stolen from us and all you can do is whine….
Comment by Pokr Mher — 3/5/2008 @ 3:16 pm
Dear Arson and others:
Frankly, I do believe this is all about “PEOPLE”, they are fed up with current regime, LTP or whoever else plays a small role in this “revolution”, it’s not about who won the election, it’s about finally, our people found their voice.
OSCE reported that “election was within international standards” and YES, it was a great progress from the last one, however, they also added “it was far from perfect”.
Ursula, I fully agree with you, all GOVERNMENTS are CORRUPT, there is no question about it, but Armenia is past due for a revolution, LTP or whoever else are not the purpose for this unrest, high unemployment, unstable economy, high migration and lack of balance between poor and rich. Poor are falling more deeper into “poverty trap”, rich are rising up to the clouds, what builds a country is “middle class” and we don’t have one in Armenia.
Arsen, your points are WELL taken.
My friends, at the end of the day, if you want to see for yourself, get on the plane and go to Yerevan, live there, work with the public (if you can find a job), live in the villages to find out what are the problems in the GRASS ROOT, only then you will taste TRUE ARMENIA.
Blame and finger pointing is to our Diaspora and western donors, we are carrying White Man’s BURDEN (book by William Easterly).
Best
H
Comment by HG — 3/5/2008 @ 6:48 pm
Dear Arson and others:
Frankly, I do believe this is all about “PEOPLE”, they are fed up with current regime, LTP or whoever else plays a small role in this “revolution”, it’s not about who won the election, it’s about finally, our people found their voice.
OSCE reported that “election was within international standards” and YES, it was a great progress from the last one, however, they also added “it was far from perfect”.
Ursula, I fully agree with you, all GOVERNMENTS are CORRUPT, there is no question about it, but Armenia is past due for a revolution, LTP or whoever else are not the purpose for this unrest, high unemployment, unstable economy, high migration and lack of balance between poor and rich. Poor are falling more deeper into “poverty trap”, rich are rising up to the clouds, what builds a country is “middle class” and we don’t have one in Armenia.
Arsen, your points are WELL taken.
My friends, at the end of the day, if you want to see for yourself, get on the plane and go to Yerevan, live there, work with the public (if you can find a job), live in the villages to find out what are the problems in the GRASS ROOT, only then you will taste TRUE ARMENIA.
Blame and finger pointing is to our Diaspora and western donors, we are carrying White Man’s BURDEN (book by William Easterly).
Best
H
Comment by HG — 3/5/2008 @ 6:49 pm
My question is this,
“If people are opposed to Serge and his corruption and election fixing (which they should be), but they realise LTP is even worse (and by bringing him in will bring instability for no good reason), should people protest against serge?”
-Is it not better to get involved in NGO’s which hold government in check?
-Why not increase peoples political capacity to be able to take on the roles taken up by ‘officials’ in the bureaucracy, which are pro-govt?
-There are many ways in which to have critical support of Armenia, EVEN in Armenia. We dont always have to bring the country to ruins.
-We have seen a rapid burst of growth in NGO’s and Think Tanks, but they need more of a push, to have greater effect on government, why dont we support these NGO’s, instead of smashing up our economy, our infrustructure, and our image internationally…
Lets not rip our own city
Comment by HyeFella — 3/6/2008 @ 1:42 am
Dear Lucy:
You comments are well taken with much respect.
I look at the world from the “development and sustainability” point of view. This is a long debate that requires hours of discussion with presenting facts and figures.
Just to clarify few items- There is no doubt in my mind that Diaspoa plays a major role in rebuilding Armenia, helping orphanages, etc. etc., however at the end of the day, Armenia is still hanging on to Western Aid and Diaspora? why? because we failed to teach “sustainability”, we gave handouts, out of the goodness of our heart, sympathy and centimental values. I can go through details, item by item, but again, this is not the time nor place to discuss it.
Armenia is a CONFUSED country. In one hand, central Yerevan is surrounded with a lavish life style, high rise buildings selling for $1700 per sq. meter, expensive cars, European style boutiques, etc. etc…, then going to outskirts, an hour from this fantasy land, it feels we have gone back to 1800 century, cars are replaced by donkies, poverty is very much felt, despair and depression is in the air. With one hand, we beg for money from U.S. government and get ourselves in Millenium Challenge Account along with the poorest countries in the world, on the other hand we drive MBZ and Bentley’s……so, what is our status? are we poor? a post conflict country? a transiting? or developing? I had the same discussion with a diplomat in Yerevan, an individual with 30 years of professional experience is not able to identify Armenia’s status. Donors place Armenia under “transiting”, “post conflict”, “developing”, we don’t even have a solid identity with donors.
This is “People’s” revolution, it’s not about WHO WON the election, it’s about people raising their voice and exercising their human rights. For your information, a human right advocate was brutally beaten by the police, she was not carrying a gun, nor was she part of a specific group, she was an observer (this was never reported in media).
In closing, yes, we may or may not agree with one another, that’s the beauty of exercising our human rights.
Again, thanks and may God bless you and others for helping Armenia
Much gratitude
Comment by Hilda — 3/6/2008 @ 5:06 am
Dear Hilda,
Thank you not only for responding to my latest comment, but for the spirit in which you responded. It’s apparent to me that you and I are both very concerned about the situation in Armenia, and although we may be approaching the issues at hand from two very different perspectives, we both care very deeply about Armenia and its people and want the best for them. And I just thought I’d share a few thoughts/opinions with you about what you said, not to “respond” to you, but because these are issues that interest me also.
I completely agree with you about the diaspora not having taught the people of Armenia sustainability. Probably part of the reason this is the case is that it’s much easier to provide financial help than to teach sustainability, and the diaspora was not up for the challenge after Armenia became independent. Almost every diasporan can donate money, but relatively few have the time–from among those who have the expertise and the desire to help–to actually go to Armenia, especially for long periods, to teach what needs to be taught. And because the people in Armenia have lived under the bondage of an oppressive regime and its economic system for so long, it may be hard for many of them, especially in the older generation, to change in a relatively short timespan, even when attempts are made to teach them new ways of doing things.
And, Armenia IS a confused country. My family members who visited Armenia recently said almost exactly what you’re saying about the marked difference between Yerevan and the rest of Armenia. And I can fully appreciate how this is causing problems in categorizing Armenia’s current condition. Although I don’t consider myself qualified to professionally categorize Armenia’s current condition, it seems to me that the reason there is that discrepancy between Yerevan and the rural areas or other smaller towns is that Armenia is still in a period of transition, as well as post- conflict and post-natural disaster (’88 earthquake), even so many years later, and because of this there is uneven progress.
Hilda, I can hear the pain in your heart when you talk about the human rights advocate who was brutally beaten by the police, and I share it fully. And it troubles me greatly that this is happening not under the ruthless Soviet regime of yester-year, but in an independent Armenia. These sort of actions, along with the destruction of property or theft, or attacks on other civilians, need to be strongly condemned. I don’t want to blame everything on the communist era, but, again, there is a possibility that the behavior you’re describing is a remnant of that regime during which human rights were violated horribly, and on a regular basis. I am sure you know about people being shipped off to Siberia for years of hard labor for absolutely no reason, or people being incarcerated for many years because they were branded “nationalists.” By those standards, beating a human rights advocate, as horrific as that is, is probably considered “going easy on them.” (And by saying this I am not absolving the current administration of any guilt in the matter, simply trying to understand why this could be happening). Again, a very painful reality that should concern every Armenian, or anyone else who is interested in Armenia and its people, whether they live in or outside of Armenia.
In conclusion, I do sincerely hope that things will change for the better in Armenia and that all of its citizens will finally be able to live with dignity, and in freedom and economic prosperity. Let’s be optimistic and hope, despite all the recent developments, that thanks to people who care, especially those such as yourself who work in the “trenches,” so to speak, to help the Armenian people, this may become a reality sooner than we think.
Comment by Lucy — 3/6/2008 @ 6:24 pm
Abres Lucy jan; shad abres. UNITY BRINGS POWER and this is the time to unite with our sisters and brothers in the journey to reach Democracy.
I do believe that sustainability alleviates poverty, it’s been proven all over the world (Sachs, end of poverty), perhaps this is a good wake up call for Diaspora to stop “hand outs” and show “tough love”, yes, I do agree with you 100 percent that not everyone has time nor expertise to teach sustainability, but every single individual who donates to funds, should do his/her part to demand “transparency” and “accountability”.
For the past three years, I have been working and living in the most under developed countries such as: Afghanistan Pakistan and the Middle East, I have seen more progress in economic development in these countries than Armenia. Economic development is not about; high rise buildings, roads, lavish life style, it is defined as “sustainable income and employment generation” to get people out of poverty trap (Sachs 2006).
I have established an NGO to implement projects in rural Armenia villages. We have done wonders with very minimal funds with 100 percent success rate of sustainability. We provided water to people for irrigation, renovated kindergarten to increase student rate by 70 percent, provided micro finance to 25 farmers and the list goes on and on, YES our people understand sustainability, they need appropriate tools to build a strong foundation.
All in all, again, your comments are well received with much respect.
I LOVE my motherland, I LOVE my people and will lay my life to seek freedom and democracy for people, I can’t wait to fulfill my dream and move to a FREE Armenia.
Bravo to you and others for their passion and compassion.
Keep the momentum
Best
Comment by Hilda — 3/6/2008 @ 10:07 pm
WHERE ARE THE ANGRY VOICES FROM THE SPYURK?????
Where are the organizations and representatives from the so-called democratic West???
People have been brutally shot down for expressing their pent-up rage and disgust with the way they are treated by the petty criminal hacks that run Armenia like it was their personal fiefdom…
Yerevan is under martial law!!!!No freedom of assembly, no freedom of the press, no dissent !!!!!
This battler isn’t over by a long shot!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Pokr Mher — 3/7/2008 @ 12:49 pm
Actually, Yerevan is not under martial law, but anyway.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 3/10/2008 @ 4:20 pm
Hey Onnik,
How would you know??? You’re on record as saying that the State of Emergency hasn’t had an effect on your pizza-eating forays or going to Bambir concerts in the wee hours of the morning !!!!!
When groups of five or six people ar told by machine-totting soldiers to “move on”, I’d say its martial law….
Comment by Pokr Mher — 3/12/2008 @ 11:16 am
Hey, Pokr Mher, how would you know? Do you live here?
Let me put it like this, citizens are not being told to move on as they go about their business. Besides, it’s not martial law when the military assumes control of everything, curfews exist and so on. It’s a state of emergency that is being gradually reduced and which has actually introduced some calm into the city after day after day of hate-mongering by Ter-Petrossian and co in Liberty Square.
Of course, if you’re actively involved with Ter-Petrossian’s team then sure, it affects you, but as most citizens are not, it doesn’t. Of course, that’s not the point. What is concerns your inability to distinguish between martial law and a state of emergency. Here’s some pointers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency
And incidently, Harmick and Matt, can you stop these Ter-Petrossian suporters from making things personal?
Besides, if I work every hour of the day and I have no time but to stick a frozen pizza in an oven for 15 minutes, what does that have to do with anything?
Coming home late at night — in the early hours — however, does. In the situation of martial law it would probably attract attention. But, like it or not, life in Yerevan moves on and thankfully, the situation is calm. Indeed, it’s only once in a while that it’s even obvious that a state of emergency is in place.
However, again I state that there is a difference between martial law and a state of emergency and I also ask once again, Pokr Mher, do you actually live in Armenia or are you just assuming you know what the reality is. It’s a state of emergency that actually doesn’t seem so urgent and which most of us consider was over the top.
It’s definitely not martial law. Simple as that.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 3/18/2008 @ 10:20 am