Ode to Armenian Women
The backbone of Armenia is her women. The Armenian woman must be one of the most industrious creatures on Earth. As I go from meeting to meeting, I am very happy when I find a member of the meeting group to be female. The reason for this is that with a woman present, things will get done.
Now, before all the Armenian men swear me off, I am not saying there are no capable men in Armenia. There are many capable men but what I have found is that the true key to the future is the Armenian woman. Armenian Women are very capable and they work from sun up to well after sun down. They help their family, friends and even strangers when ever asked. They are tireless and educated.
I am speaking in large generalizations but I have come to understand that when I enter an organization, I will always find the woman in the organization as she is the key. She will make things happen. She understands how to massage the egos especially if there is the all-important director heading the organization. I find a way to bridge the barriers between us and make her a confidant. Through her, success will come.
In my involvement in the universities, I am finding that the young women are much better students and are much more articulate. The young men spend much of their classes standing in the courtyards smoking where the young woman will attend class and do well on her homework. I want to shake the young men and get them out of their current funk but it seems they are not ready to move out of it in rural Armenia.
In my effort to help improve Armenia, I am concentrating on successful young people, the vast majority of which are young women. I believe through their efforts and vision, Mother Armenia will improve. What concerns me most is that many young men seem to be without motivation. In rural Armenia, they have lost the eon long drive of Armenians to learn. Their language skills are lacking and many have little reasoning skill. Of course, if you get into the state universities in Yerevan, you will find both sexes doing well. Of course, this is the upper crust of kids who have the means to study in Yerevan and can choose not to study in the regional universities.
As I meet young people and work with them, I am impressed by some men but displeased with many more. These young men are capable and can understand modern concepts but choose otherwise. Many feel that they are powerless to change their future and when I find a young person who is willing to work hard to change Armenia for the better, that young person receives all the help he/she needs. However, what I am finding is that in rural Armenia, that person is increasing becoming a young woman who leaves the young man behind in a cloud of confusion.
Armenia will become stronger and thankfully she has a large number of young women to push her forward. The Armenian woman is the true resource. I hope that the young women are encouraged to use their knowledge and skill and not resign themselves to being only wives and mothers. I believe that they can be pillars of the family and at the same time forward Armenia. God bless the motivated young people of Armenia and may their thirst for knowledge and improvement infect those around them.
Burnell, your observations are spot-on. I have noticed the same thing over the years. Armenian women seem to have more of a drive to improve their situation through education, work or other activities, whereas men seem to me to be less inclined to make an effort and to not have the feeling they can change anything. It is as if women feel they can only gain from education, involvement etc., whereas men feel they can only lose. When I think of all the people I have met over the years who can and want to make a change in their own lives, the lives of those around them, or in their communities, almost all of them are women.
Comment by Myrthe — 10/24/2006 @ 6:56 pm
I am almost sure there are many this kind of articles about women in Afganistan and Iraq. The difference is that we Armenian men know very well that our women are priceless and most of us cherish them.
Also, you guys completely ignore that fact that thousands of Armenian men earn money outside the country. I would definitely call them “the capable part”.
Comment by Armen — 10/24/2006 @ 11:50 pm
Armen, I agree that many Armenian men respect Armenian women. I am not challenging that fact.
Second, the men that work outside of Armenia do it because they do not have any other option. We have already seen that many men will go to Russia and leave thier family in Armenia. Some men end up having second families in Russia and many live a difficult life of traveling between jobs. These men, although important to send money back to Armenia are not helping to improve Armenia in the same way the young, forward thinking and educated young women can and are helping.
I would expect that you would agree that the world is moving to a knowledge economy. The Armenians for centuries have participated in a knowledge economy and this is partly why they have been able to survive as they have. However, with the Sovietisms still in strong grip of Armenia, the average male in rural Armenia holds little hope for a better future. He is unmotivated and resorts to going to Russia to do construction or be a taxi driver and he has a five year university degree. However, He is not dedicated to study and knowledge. The women are much more forward thinking.
I contend that the men in Russia although important for Armenia’s economy especially since the fall of the Soviet Union but they are not going to be the driving force to move Armenia forward in the years to come.
Comment by Burnell — 10/25/2006 @ 10:08 am
Neither do I discredit all Armenian men. There are many that do work hard and are extremely capable. I know However, among young men (student age) I don’t find too many that seem to have a sense of ownership of their future.
Armenian men may cherish their women, but many (but definitely not all) cherish their women only as mothers and (house)wives. I am sorry, but that is true.
Comment by Myrthe — 10/25/2006 @ 10:59 am
Burnell, I realy don’t think that your claims are based on any significant statistics. These can be assumptions only. I don’t want to sound like I depreciating Armenian women impressive business skills. I completely agree with you thiks. But I don’t think that Armenian men are any less capable of forward thiking.
As far as the male population in villages is concerned … Economic crisis is always followed by stress for males. And Armenia is not an exception. If you review the American or European history after the Great Depression or the Second World War you will find that the situation was similar. Females are more capable in withsanding emotional hardships. This is not a secret and has been proved by science. If you talk with some educated Armenian men you will see that we know very well that Armenian women are very important for the future of Armenia.
Guys, I am sorry but I don’t think you are making your conclusions based on factual data but rather on subjective factors that come from you own experiences.
Myrthe, about how we cherish them … mmm I don’t think the Western vs. Eastern argument will work in this case. Armenian women have always had freedom to act according to their preferences for quite some time already. Their degree of freedom might not be similar to women in the U.S. per se, but I don’t see why it should be totaly similar. Also, I would argue that bacause of this, our women are more faminine than the women in the West.
Comment by Armen — 10/25/2006 @ 6:23 pm
Armen, I am not talking about Eastern v. Western here. To be honest, I just think that this “Armenia men honor women”-thing is some kind of myth. For one thing, I have only heard men bring this ‘argument’ up. I have never ever heard an Armenian woman say something along the lines of “we feel valued/honored/cherished by Armenian men”. What exactly do you mean by “more feminine” and why should that be a measure stick. Does that mean walking on stilettoheels, using make-up and things like that? Or does it mean being less vocal, less independent etc.? I hardly use make-up and don’t wear stiletto-heels, I am independent, have an opinion, but that doesn’t make me less of a woman or less feminine. Please explain, because I have heard this so many times (again: from men only) but I still have a big problem grasping the concept of “more feminine”.
By the way, I am not claiming that Armenian women should be exactly like Western women. I am all for diversity and I do respect that in Armenia generally family plays a much bigger role than in the West.
By the way, Armen, do you have any factual data supporting your point of view? I think there is nothing wrong with Burnell and me basing our opinions on what we see around us and what we hear from people we talk with. After all, both he and I have spent considerable time in Armenia and outside of Yerevan in small towns and villages in the regions.
Comment by Myrthe — 10/26/2006 @ 9:06 am
Just want to make clear, that I am not into male bashing. I am just stating what I have seen around me over the past years.
Comment by Myrthe — 10/26/2006 @ 9:10 am
Armen, axper jan …
You are 100% right. I have no factual data. Factual data in rural Armenia is harder to find than the easter bunny. If you do not believe me, go to any RA Statistical Office and ask the rate of unemployment in any of the rural regions and then compare that with your nearest town center. I am not a social scientist and I do not proclaim to have the definitive answers. I am throwing you a bone for discussion and I like a little debate but in the end, yes my idea is subjective. I also love the fact you said I was wrong! That gives me faith and hope and I can only hope you live outside of Yerevan to spread your good vibes.
I will leave you with this story as it is the basis on which I make my argument. In one of the region universities in which I conduct trainings, I have 25 students evenly split between men and women. Today, I came to the training and I had 11 women ready to learn. Not one male was in the class. The men came some 20 minutes later. The marks showed that 7 women and only 2 men are receiving passing status.
If I did not speak the language and know the customs, I would agree I have no basis for comparison. However that is not the case. If I am given the choice, I will put much more effort into the young woman because it is she who will educate the next generation and instill the thirst for knowledge in the next generation of Armenians which will bring Armenia to her glory.
Comment by Burnell — 10/26/2006 @ 4:16 pm
Myrthe, yes by faminine I mean just that, walking on stilettoheels and using a lot of make up. That is faminine. No jeans, no sports shoes, no driking beer. Only wine! That is “more faminine”. And the measuring stick is what I personally as an Armenian man think of that, and nothing else.
This has nothing to do with the independency of Armenian women. They have always had their degree of independency and they have been comfortable with that. As far as the villages are concerned … well, they are villages. Don’t tell me the village women in Europe or the U.S. are any more forward thinking. I have lived in the U.S. and I have met and talked with village women there. Most of them are VERY limited. Although they have independence but they have no idea what they can do with it other than opening a bank account. Village is village everywhere.
If you respect the fact that family plays more role here in Armenia, you should also respect the fact that this is the direct result of our women being more faminine and less independent than the women in the Western countries.
Surely, we are now in a very difficult economic situation and people have become different but during the Soviet period Armenian men where known all over the country for implementing everything their wives told them to do. I am sure, when the economy develops the situation is going to be the same.
As far as the factual data is concerned, I have spend longer time in Armenia than you guys and I definitely know better.
Burnell, no I live in Yerevan but I travel to the regions a lot. I just have one thing to tell you.
Investing in Armenian men has never had any worse results. We have achieved unbelivable results in everything we did, the last one was during the Turin Chess Olymipics. I wonder if your country has a chess team that has won the olympics? I highly doubt that. Also, if you go to your country (where are you from actually) and look around you will find that many Armenian men are wealthier than yourself. Be they the old generation or even the Soviet generation.
There is no need to accentuate women’s role. I mean what is your suggestion? Scholarships for girls and no scholarships for boys?
Comment by Armen — 10/29/2006 @ 7:52 pm
Armen, why do you take this so personal? Why do you want to take it on you to There are good men and crappy men everywhere, in Armenia as well.
By the way, I really don’t see how wearing stiletto heels and tons of make has any direct relationship with being a good mother. I am pretty sure there is no relationship between the two
How do you know women are comfortable with the degree of independency they have? Have you ever asked them? Because I know many women who would really want to be financially independent from their parents or husbands and who would like to be more independent from “what the neighbors think of them” (i.e. gossiping).
When I go to any town or village outside Yerevan, I always see very many men hanging around, smoking, playing nardi, gossiping, seemingly not doing anything, whereas I see very many the women walking around with big shopping bags or being busy around the house.
As for your last suggestion: scholarships should be given to those people who deserve them, who are talented enough and are willing to work hard enough to use the opportunity given to them. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that you will find out that more young women than young men will apply for them.
This is the last comment I will make in this thread.
Comment by Myrthe — 10/31/2006 @ 8:39 am
Armen,
Here is some interesting data for you to think about.
These are the results from a survey conducted by the Armenian National Statistical Service
in 2004.
• The average female salary in the country was 30,000 drams ($67) a month, compared to an average of 57,000 drams earned by men at the time.
• Unemployment among Armenian women is twice higher than among men.
• The two genders have the same level of education.
• 4 hours a day—average time spent on household tasks by an Armenian woman.
• 4 minutes a day—average time spent on household tasks by an Armenian man.
• 0—the number of women among Armenia’s government ministers, regional governors and town or city mayors.
• 5—the number of female deputies in Armenia’s 131-member parliament. (Source: RFE/RL)
http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/03/c3455613-178c-4b68-a86f-6d19b2ca346d.asp
My personal opinion is that most of the Armenian women are more liberal and open minded than most of the Armenian men. Most of the international organizations operating in Yerevan prefer to hire women since they are more adaptable and as, I said, open to change.
Now, if we could replace some of those mafiosos sitting in Parliament with smart and intelligent women, Armenia would be much better place to live.
Comment by nanul — 11/2/2006 @ 1:38 am
Armenian men and women are equally valuable for a positive development of the nation. Unfortunately, within top politics, top level business and some other power structures women are underrepresented. This needs to be changed, together with local feudal notions about women’s place in the power hierarchy vs. men. No doubt.
However, I would characterize the false theory by Burnell above, claiming that Armenian women are better humans than men, a feminist and sex-racist rubbish.
Comment by Vardan Sevan — 11/6/2006 @ 4:32 pm
I so promised myself not to comment in this thread again, but here I am again.
Vardan, where in Burnell’s post did you read that he considers Armenian women better human beings than men? Maybe you are seeing something I am missing, but have the distinct feeling that you are reading things that are not there.
I would like to bring up another question here: why do Armenian men have such long toes? Why are they unable of discussing something, that they may or may not agree with, in a civilised way?
Comment by Myrthe — 11/8/2006 @ 3:28 pm
Oh, sorry. I shouldn’t generalize on the basis of the replies of only two men.;-)
Comment by Myrthe — 11/8/2006 @ 3:35 pm
Myrthe, thank you for your arrogance. Your comments and questions are demonstratively supporting my conclusions.
Comment by Vardan Sevan — 11/9/2006 @ 7:27 pm
V.S., I have the distinct impression that the tongue-in-cheek was completely lost on you.
Comment by Myrthe — 11/27/2006 @ 10:23 am
Nanul,
The data you presented comes from here:
http://www.armstat.am/Arm/StatData/Taregirq_06/Taregirq_06_4.pdf
It is accurate. However! Why do you assume that this data proves your arguments? Maybe it is the free choice of Armenian women. No doubt, there is a part of them (I mean the unemployed) that want to find job, or a better job. But, I am sure there are many women that do want to be housewives and nothing more. There is no need to overdramatize the situation.
So what if there are no women as Ministers, Governors etc., etc. Maybe they just don’t care to become one. Have you ever thought about it?
International organizations choose to hire more females? You want me to give you a reason or two? One reason can be that many Armenian girls study foreign languages, while the majority of boys study natural subjects. The second reason can be that many foreigners like to be surrounded by beautful Armenian girls in there offices, etc. etc.
And the last one … if we replace the mafiosos in parliament with smart and intelligent men (instead of smart and intelligent women), the result will be the same.
Comment by Armen — 11/28/2006 @ 3:30 am
Myrthe,
You asked why do we, Armenia men, have such long toes. Good question! Well … the answer is, if all other men loose the length of their toes, you can always find it here in Armenia! It is no joke that Caucasus is the cradle of Caucasian race
Comment by Armen — 11/28/2006 @ 3:39 am
I am starting to learn your “distinct” style.
Unfortunately, feminism is badly stinky, no matter where and how one uses her tongue. No camouflage can mask its intentions. Feminist women’s chauvinism and jingoism, supremacist and racist theories aimed at female control over men, are doomed to failure, because they are false, unjust and misanthropic, and thereby self-destructive for women. Just like patriarchy is for men.
I don’t know much in depth about you or other Dutch women. But I see your attitude towards men. No wonder you have problems understanding Armenian men, as you also admit, although disrespect shines through your style when you do that.
As a group, one gender can not be better than the other. This is already sufficiently proved by history and science. Armenian women and men are individuals, all of them, as all other humans are. To say one is better or more valuable for the society than the other, is also therefore wrong.
I think it is futile to import the war between genders to Armenia from certain Western countries. It has already failed there. A better way to go is perhaps the one with equal rights and mutual respect. The problem in this case is that some people still tend to succumb to the temptation of feminist ideology about gender-dominance and gender-racism.
Is it possible that you hoped for no-response or silent consent from Armenian men? If this is true, your are going to be disappointed all the way until your possible critical self-analysis of your “distinct” ways and means, i.e. thoughts and communication style.
Comment by Vardan Sevan — 11/28/2006 @ 11:11 am
“The second reason can be that many foreigners like to be surrounded by beautful Armenian girls in there offices”. Armen, you are assuming that only men work in international organizations and that they are hiring only pretty young girls. That is male chauvinist b.s. of the highest degree! I am sorry to be so rude, but there is no other way I can put it.
Armen, I still go back to my previous questions to you: have you ever talked to Armenian women about these topics? Have you ever asked them about what they want and how they value their position in society?
Vardan Sevan, I certainly did not hope that no one would respond to my comments. If I would prefer not to get a reaction, I would not have posted any comments.
Vardan Sevan, I think we agree on more than you might think. Just two quotes from you:”As a group, one gender can not be better than the other.” and “Unfortunately, within top politics, top level business and some other power structures women are underrepresented. This needs to be changed, together with local feudal notions about women’s place in the power hierarchy vs. men. No doubt.” I absolutely agree with you. No gender is better than the other. I have never said otherwise, however much you seem to think so. I would like you to point out exactly where I said that women are better than men.
I think eventually we are both talking about what you call “local feudal notions about women’s place in the power hierarchy vs. men”. That is basically exactly what I am talking about. These notion hinder the development of Armenia as a country as well: due to those ideas about half the population is not contributing to the development and prosperity of this country. What a waste!
As for ‘feminism’: there are many different forms and “degrees” of feminism, more and less radical. The most radical feminists think along the lines of “The less men the better”, which in my opinion is complete b.s. Unfortunately, this is the type of idea most people connect with feminism. There are many more less radical types of feminism. However, something they all have in common is striving to eliminate the inequalities between men and women in the social, political, economic fields. Now that is something worth working on, I believe and it seems some of the other participants in this thread agree.
I agree hat there are certainly many women in Armenia who are very content with being pretty, marrying a (hopefully, well-off) man, having children and sitting at home. There is nothing wrong with that if they are happy like that. But. There is also a fairly large group of women here who wants something more out of life and who would like to be judged by something else than their looks and the height of the stiletto-heels they are balancing on or who would like to be able to be more free in her movements without being questioned of having to defend herself. Unfortunately, if a woman aspires something along those lines, she is frowned upon. It is so damn difficult for women in Armenian society to follow a different path if they wish so, there is so much pressure to behave a certain way.
Comment by Myrthe — 11/28/2006 @ 5:09 pm
Myrthe,
I don’t have time for this kind of discussions. And you incidetally lost your sense of humor. This is my last post.
Scroll back and read again. That was one of the possible reasons I mentioned. And it was ment illustrate how bankrupt are any similar maximalist conclusions like the ones that Nanul has made.
You Western Europeans are so blineded with your self-righteousness about the correct universal social setting… And this is in times when the population of Western Europe keeps growing only because of foreign migrants. Is this the right situation? Not for a small nation like Armenia.
Women are key to national success? This sound like another one of those b.s. global theories like communist international…We have been fed up with this kind of utopias. The key to success is everyday hard work.
You asked me if I have discussed this with Armenia women. Be sure that I have discussed this with them more than yourself.
Comment by Armen — 11/30/2006 @ 9:21 pm
The rise of women in Armenia is a prerequisite to an Armenian renaissance.
Comment by Henry — 4/22/2007 @ 4:53 am