Sakaashvililand
Onnik forwarded me this link to an account of a recent trip to Georgia by Brian Kearney of the Armenia Social Transition Program.
Apparently the days of passing some lari to the policeman when you run a red light are also gone. Using a mobile phone while driving will also be against the law from January 1st 2005. Registering a car has also been simplified eliminating the need to re-register each year- another source of revenue for corrupt officials gone.
On a related note (to Brian Kearney), a recent interview with him on PADCO’s activities in Armenia (social security reforms etc) is now online at:
http://www.oneworld.am/journalism/interviews/brian_kearney_0001.html
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 11/17/2004 @ 6:39 am
Matt - I had the impression that URL (Padco.am/geogia) is not meant for public consumption. You may want to check…
Comment by Raffi Kojian — 11/17/2004 @ 1:05 pm
Raffi
permission was given for this to be linked.
Matt
Comment by Matt — 11/17/2004 @ 1:28 pm
Raffi,
Brian Kearney gave permssion for the URL to be linked to. I asked before I sent it to Matt.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 11/17/2004 @ 4:42 pm
I think Gerogian Govt. should be more concerned about the BTC pipeline which will pass near the Borjomi region.
Secondly, I don’t understand what is the purpose of this article? Why are we only now comparing Georgia with Armenia?
Comment by Hakob Gevorgian — 11/19/2004 @ 1:44 pm
Hakob,
The reason for this article and why now is because Brian Kearney has only stepped foot in Georgia in the past two weeks after working there in 92/3. What took him there? A reason close to the hearts of many international workers in Armenia. Wine!
What also esplains why now? Because it is one year after the November 2003 events that brought Saakashvili to power and I guess we’ll be seeing more and more of these types of articles. Why compare it to Armenia? Well, he didn’t really. Instead he speaks of what he saw in Georgia and doesn’t really compare anything to Armenia so I think you’re thinking this is something far more than it is.
However, it is interesting to compare the situation of police in Georgia to Armenia. Nothing has changed here in this respect.
As for the BTC and Borjomi, however, yes, you’re right. There is an issue and it’s as much up to the Georgian Government AND society there as well as international environmental pressure groups etc.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 11/19/2004 @ 5:06 pm
Onnik,
I didn’t expect to get a sarcastic response about what I have said. If we go deeper into that article we can assume that Brian K. saw a lot of good stuff in Georgia than what he sees in Armenia. Well, lets just do a real comparison then.
In his article, Brian mentioned about wages in Georgia that policeman gets. Comparing the wage with the Armenian police department, we can see a huge difference in the sum. Let me explain to you and to everyone who blames the Armenian government for such “instability” in the county. Thus I will now point out what resources Armenia and Georgia have.
Armenia:
Armenia is located in a region surrounded by Islamic countries, from which Turkey and Azerbaijan have blockade against Armenia. From the north we have Georgia (Christian), which by the way is not a very trustworthy partner/neighbor for Armenia.
Georgia:
Georgia is a corridor for Chechen Terrorist. It is possible that Georgian authorities benefit from this by providing Chechens to get weapons from Turkey. Georgia owns a shore in the Black sea (This is a very profitable for transportation).
Now, according to these comparisons, I want you to give me your honest opinion on the Brians article. Don’t you think this is a wrong place to post, discuss and compare Armenian issues with Georgian?
Thank you.
Comment by Hakob Gevorgian — 11/20/2004 @ 7:40 am
Hakob,
Three points.
i) The article does NOT compare Armenia with Georgia. That is obvious through the entire article. In fact, Kearney is actually comparing Georgia with the situation in the country in 92/3.
ii) I did not post this article so you should ask Matt but I know that if a critical article about post-Shevardnadze Georgia was posted in the same blog you would be perfectly happy with that.
iii) There is no sarcasm in my email. I am merely responding to your post.
However, I would agree — as seems to have struck a raw nerve with you — that you can identify some areas where Georgia appears to be better than Armenia. The police is one of them and you make a very valid point about the fact that salaries are higher for policemen since Saakashvili came into power.
That’s correct but you are missing a fundamental point to this and that is that increasing salaries is VITAL to the fight against corruption. Of course, being seen to discharge policeman for corruption is also another issue (Saakashvili fired the entire traffic police, for example, and for one week there were no traffic cops in Georgia yet apparently, no increase in traffic violations or accidents which says a lot). However, salaries are an important issue.
How does this fit in with Armenia? Well, it actually fits in a lot with both pre-Saakashvili Georgia and Armenia and that is, being seen to make a genuine fight against corruption (which even the Dashnaks are starting to say is not happening in Armenia and few would disagree) and ensuring that taxes get into the state budget so you can pay policemen more. Hwever, a crucial issue is also the rule of law and a government interested in senuring that the law works. Now, this is not happening in Armenia.
However, I will say that while I disagree with some points of Kearney’s articles. For example, I saw the “prosperity” in the regions of Georgia when I was last there in Spring 2003. However, I should add a “but.” This was not all the regions — it was the fertile regions and of course, we can mention other areas such as Javakhk that were not “prosperous.” Anyway, the point is that this is not, in my opinion, a change under Saakashvili. It was the same situation before and yes, it has a lot to do with open borders and fertile land.
The main points, however, regarding the police are appropiate but there are also some other points that Kearney makes that you should have no problem with accepting. That is, that there is growing disillusionment with the situation in Georgia because a lot of people expected too much too soon. A more pressing issue, however, is the lack of any real opposition which — as in Armenia — is a necessary prerequisite for democratic development in any country.
Other than that, what to say? What has this got to do with Armenia? Well, quite a lot really as Georgia is one of Armenia’s neighbors and the three S. Caucasus republics are part of the same region and will one day be economically integrated. It is also necessary to compare and contrast the situation in Georgia (and Azerbaijan) with that in Armenia simply because we have to understand the regional processes at work which WILL affect all three republics individually or as a collective whole.
Of course, we used to delight in doing this when we could say how bad Georgia was when compared to Armenia but as usual, when we can’t fit any comparison into that context, we instead declare that Armenia’s northern neighbor and MAIN trade conduit to the outside is irrelevent in any discussion of developments in Armenia.
Not true.
However, before you put 2 and 2 together and make 5 I will say this. I think some of the processes underway in Georgia are very encouraging. On the other hand, there are some very concerning realities as well. The main one perhaps is that there exists no real opposition. A second is that Saakashvili is known to be a hot-head and from time to time he makes big mistakes (S. Ossetia was the most obvious).
Other than that, as Armenia is affected by what occurs in neighboring countries, it is of course VERY relevent. Moreover, when people say that the government is fighting corruption in Armenia I think we can see that this is not the case. There could be a real struggle against corruption tomorrow if there was the political will in Armenia but there is none.
And it’s not just me saying this. Virtually everyone does and slowly, slowly, the ARF-D are saying the same thing and threatening to leave the government.
But lastly, your statement below:
> Don’t you think this is a wrong place to post, discuss and compare Armenian issues with Georgian?
Again, I repeat. There is NO comparison of Armenia with Georgia in this article. However, I think you’ve understood by reading the article that in fact, there’s good reason to compare the two and go away feeling disappointed with the situation in Armenia which is why you would rather such articles not be seen in Armenian circles.
Once again, I say that there are many problems in Georgia, the main one being the same long-term problem of Armenia and Azerbaijan and that is in terms of a Caucasian mentality. However, the ruleof law is key to assisting this to change over time. On the other hand, the Georgian mentality in this case might prevail and it will all go disasterously wrong. Perhaps even, there are also some signs of some hiccups already.
However, I will say this. The Georgian experiment with democracy and the rule of law must succeed if this region is to have a future. Then, Armenia and Azerbaijan can perhaps consider a model for their own development. If the Georgian experiment fails, however, then this region will always remain poor, corrupt and stagnated.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 11/20/2004 @ 4:56 pm
BTW: Why are we so damn illogical and unable to get our heads out from under the sand?
Instead of getting shirty and asking whay should we even compare Armenia with Georgia (which was NOT done) shouldn’t we instead be saying something like:
Hmmm… okay, so some real developments have occurred re the struggle against corruption in the traffic police in Georgia. Now, I wonder, how could we do something here. Are the same methods appropiate and what else needs to be done in order to achieve the same objective?
Amazing. I still can’t believe this mentality. Hey, let’s not see what’s happening around us. Let’s remain isolated from the outside world and regional and global processes instead. Sure, why not? Of course, there may not be much of an Armenia by the end of it all but vochinch…
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 11/20/2004 @ 5:08 pm
BTW: An online discussion is going on at the moment re. One year after the Rose Revolution and indeed, people are talking about what changes occured in Georgia. Were they just changes on the surface and what has happened (if anything) on a more internal level ie. mentality, attitude etc.
And of course, as is totally obvious to almost everyone is that of course, talking about the effect on neighboring countries is vital to this discussion.
Not so many posts for now but I think it continues for a few days. You can eavesdrop but not post at:
http://www.caucasusjournalists.net/journalist/eng/journalist_forum.asp?idforumtheme=34
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 11/20/2004 @ 9:49 pm