Armenian vs. Armenian
I’m off to Paris tomorrow so I thought I would try an experiment. As an odar one of the subjects that has intrigued me since I became involved with Armenia and Armenians is the relationship between the Spyurka (Diaspora) and Hay (Armenians from Armenia). So, while I fly over Siberia I’d like to turn this post over to you and see what you have to say.
Some suggestions:
What part can the Diaspora play in the future of Armenia?
How important are the Diaspora to Armenia?
Do you think Armenians should have a movement to encourage a homecoming (like Israel).
OK, please behave yourself!
The word is actually spyurk (the “a” connects the 2 words.)
Thanks!
Comment by k8t — 9/10/2004 @ 11:09 am
First off, it’s nice to have Katy Pearce here
(do you guys (katy and matt) co-operate in this blog?).
Now lets get to the main issue. I live in United States. From my point of view I think that the Armenian Diaspora has a very important role in building the former soviet Armenia to new democratic state. And the fact is, many of Armenians participate in Hayastan Himnadram ( http://www.himnadram.org/eng/ ). I know many individuals who invest in Armenia and I hear success stories from them.
Now, about the Movement to encourage Armenian Diaspora to move back to it’s homeland. Due to anti-Armenian, anti-Kocharian movements in United States, I think the Armenians in United Stats wont return to homeland, unless America literally tells them “good bye”. I see very few Armenians here, in USA, who are optimist. The majority of the Armenians living in USA are brainwashed by the so-called “liberal Armenians” who spread rumors about our country, about Republic of Armenia. Thus “don’t count on Armenians living in USA”.
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/10/2004 @ 2:38 pm
I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that an anti-Kocharian, anti-Armenian mentality exists in the US and is responsible for holding back Diaspora moving to Armenia.
What is holding back this movement, however, is the fact that Armenia as a country is behind the US and Western Europe in terms of infrastructure, economy and other transitional issues such as corruption and the rule of law.
For now, Diaspora from the west moving to Armenia will only be based on whether there is a fairly western standard salary paying job but as the average salary in Yerevan is $100 a month, there’s not that many going around. Instead, there is a *potential* for retirees and those with enough capital to start a business to move here but that also depends on other issues such as social and medical facilities int he case of the former, and corruption and incentives in terms of the latter. Maybe even closed borders if we’re talking middle to large businesses with the need to export.
Probably, the bulk of Diaspora that will move to Armenia now and in the future will be from other CIS countries and also the Middle East.
Another issue, of course, is dual citizenship that will probably be passed next year as part of the constitutional ammendments. However, dual citizenship does not deal with the problems that prevents many Armenians from coming to Armenia. Citizenship is still an obligation and that means military service etc.
Can the Diaspora play an important role in the development of Armenia? Of course, just as all Diaspora can. However, for now, the most obvious areas that the Diaspora can help in are with regards to investment but there are obvious problems frustrating that. Humanitarian assistance is still important but in a sense only sustainign the situation.
Basically, development is needed before we can really think about such things and even when we’ve progressed, I doubt that the situation here will be economically attractive enough to get many western Diasporans to move here. Jobs will still be low paid in western terms although a few will manage a nice job in an international organization.
I would also suspect that unless the living conditions of the population increase, sooner or later there will be increased friction between hayastantsi and Diasporans competing for scarce resources unless of course, we should still resign ourselves to the fact that the brightest university students in Armenia should find their careers and lives outside of the Republic.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/10/2004 @ 3:18 pm
Actually, an interesting question is to ask why people aren’t moving to Armenia. Gevorgian, you speak in favor of the Diaspora moving to Armenia so what are the reasons preventing you from coming here. I would guess that they’re pretty much what I’ve said above. ie. you have a good job in the west and can’t find somethign similar here, there is a leve of uncertainty as to who permanent work is here in any field etc. Of course, it could be something else such as the inability to hold dual citizenship and feel as though one is part of the Republic. Which is it or is it something else?
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/10/2004 @ 3:25 pm
Another question: Are the reasons for preventing many Diasporans from moving to Armenia the same reasons why many Hayastantsi choose to leave?
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/10/2004 @ 3:32 pm
As for a movement similar to Israel, an interesting point. The right to return automatically afford everyone of Jewish descent citizenship of Israel when they enter the country which is why the US turns a blind eye to dual citizenship in this case. Interestingly, Saakashvili, I think, announced that all Georgians overseas can take automatic citizenship. In the last case, this is more interesting because one guesses that the iniative is more to do with attracting those Georgians back who left in the mid-1990s. It’s also interesting to note that the Armenian Government is currently looking at repatriation in the same way — attracting those citizens back who left earlier or who are illegally in other countries. Probably, dual citizenship helps here.
Anyway, why not a similar “right to return” for Armenians instead of lengthy, timely and costly paperwork? Still, however, it will be more CIS and Middle Eastern Armenians that return because of the social, political and economic climate here that actually, they’d be used to.
However, the main issues relating to dual citizenship still stand — military service and competition for jobs. One government official estimated that no more than 15,000 Diasporan Armenians would come to Armenia if dual citizenship was granted (as opposed to 180,000 that came in the soviet era) but for some here, it’s a risk and a gamble.
The idea of a Diaspora sending money without oversight is a great thing for successive governments but to have a mass of people that might soon tire of the situation and demand change, that’s a huge risk, even if they were to come in the first place — which, inlarge numbers, is unlikely.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/10/2004 @ 5:03 pm
Onnik, excellent point:
“Another question: Are the reasons for preventing many Diasporans from moving to Armenia the same reasons why many Hayastantsi choose to leave?”
I agree completely. If we had to rank them where would these be placed for diasporans and for Hayastantsis?
- lack of jobs
- fear of unstable / corrupt elements in society
- disorganized / corrupt government
- concern for lack of progression in schools
- concern for lack of funding for schools
- lack of competitive higher education
and, are there specific reasons for Diasporans only?
- difficult to obtain some creature comforts easily
??
Should those of us who do not live in Armenia need to ask ourselves where these rank? I know that my concerns include some of the above. Additionally I am concerns about bringing a spouse to Armenia to share these burdens with me.
PS, Matt and I do not know each other, oddly enough!
Comment by k8t — 9/10/2004 @ 10:25 pm
And another point:
I feel that the “local” diasporans that are moving to Armenia (i.e. people from Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Iran, etc.) are going to play a key role in determining how Hayastantsis view the diasporans as a whole.
I know quite a few of these “local” diasporans from YSU’s foreign student department. They are GREAT people. A few things that I am concerned about with them though:
- They have an interesting view of Americans. Most of them have spent extended periods of time in the U.S. with cousins and other family. Yet for the most part they feel (as many people across the world do) that America is imperialistic.
- They live a Western life materialistically. They have a higher need for “creature comforts” than the Haystantsis do. Many of them have problems adjusting upon first arriving to Armenia. Frequent trips home help balance this though.
- They have the ability to see possibilities that locals may not, but that American diasporans would think are impossible considering the red tape. They don’t mind opening businesses, for example. They are accustomed to similar problems as they’ll encounter in Armenia.
All in all this is based on my personal observations of American (North American?) diasporans and “local” diasporans - generally people in their 20s and 30s, but I do also know a lot of the parents of the “local” diasporans and have seen how they react to living in Armenia too.
I think that the “local” diasporans fit in better with Hayastantsis than American diasporans do, IN GENERAL. They share a lot.
Comment by k8t — 9/10/2004 @ 10:46 pm
Katy, sorry about the spelling of Spyurk. I am in Vienna between flights and have a few minutes, but I want to say thanks for all the comments.
I find myself explaining Armenia and Armenians to other odar quite a lot, and the distinction between Hayastantsi and diasporans is always something that I take time to explain. It reveals a lot I think.
People ask about Armenians ‘going home’ and I explain that most diasporans in the West are not originally from what is now RA. Lack of jobs and living conditions notwithstanding, political clout is what struck me as the big difference with Israel. Money buys power, right? Why doesn’t Armenia have a ministry dedicated to diaspora affairs (please correct me if there is one)?
Maybe it’s just too soon. Armenia needs time to mature politically, and we will see a real direction in economic and foreign policies.
OK, I’ll be in Yerevan in one week. Keep the good posts coming!
Comment by Matt — 9/10/2004 @ 11:49 pm
I think that the “ministry” that you’ve proposed Matt, is actually under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. With the Armenia-Diaspora conference and similar projects, they are trying to figure out what the government wants from the diaspora and vice versa.
Unfortunately the RA government is too busy trying to sort itself out to pay enough attention to the diaspora.
The RA government needs to ask itself: who will stick with Armenia in the end? Will it be international organizations? American funding? Russia? North American diaspora? Local diaspora?
It certainly cannot continue to be all of the above forever. Even though these different groups are maintaining a balance with eachother now, will it really stay this way?
Comment by k8t — 9/10/2004 @ 11:58 pm
Matt, good point. Repatriation implies going back to where you came from and as we know, most Diasporans (or at least the bulk of the Diaspora that was not created in the past 13 years) comes from what is now 13 years. However, there is this entity called the Republic of Armenia which should theoretically mean something. And let’s face it, when Diasporans think of moving to Armenia anyway, they mean the capital, Yerevan. Even if Western Armenia were to appear again, I doubt that many Diasporans would go and live there just because most want as close to a western life while living in the “homeland” as possible.
Nobody can blame them for that although we are seeing the emergence of a concerningly unbalanced country. And forget the difference between the capital and the regions, we’re also talking the huge difference between the center of Yerevan and the rest of the city. Anyway, should the Diaspora be encouraged to return or not? Personally, I think freedom of movement is a human right. Therefore, those that want to move to any country should be allowed to do so if they fulfill the requirements of the host country and those that do not want to go and live in another country also have that right.
Of course, because Diasporas mean something to a country, specially one such as Armenia, then there should be some enticements but I personally believe that if someone is to be enticed to Armenia because they’re Armenian then there should also be the same amount of respect to those born here who are also Armenian. Otherwise, citizenship is devalued or at least, it means something for one group of people and another for the rest.
I also think there’s another point. Despite the “right to return’ we still speak about the Jewish Diaspora. Even with the ability and right to return to a country far in advance of Armenia, there is still a HUGE Jewish Diaspora which in fact, is serving Israel well.
Perhaps Diasporas will always have a role in being just that? A Diaspora outside the country? At the same time, unlike the Armenian Diasporan organizations that say they represent a largely silent and detached majority (the real issue in the Diaspora) but on what basis is another matter, there are those in the Jewish Diaspora that are also critical of Israel.
Something that by and large that the Armenian Diaspora as a colelctive mass is reluctant to do when it comes to the Armenian Republic.
And of course, we haven’t even got to the fact that the Armenian Diaspora itself is a disjointed, uncoordinated and largely divided mass.
Personally, I think the Diaspora as an entity needs to sort its act out as much as the Republic.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/11/2004 @ 6:17 am
That should have read:
Matt, good point. Repatriation implies going back to where you came from and as we know, most Diasporans (or at least the bulk of the Diaspora that was not created in the past 13 years) comes from what is now Eastern Turkey.
Comment by Onnik — 9/11/2004 @ 6:19 am
First off, I would like to mention that I am a citizen of the Republic of Armenia and the problem, if we can label it that way, is very personal. My family had to escape from Vazgen Sarkisian regime in 1998. I believe that it is still insecure for me to return back to my homeland.
Secondly, I would like to respond to the question about wages. As I live in United States, I see the youth is under a very high debt. I also learn that average person requires at least $3,000.00 in order to live properly, however, this type of wage is very rare. Now lets’ compare these numbers with the Armenia. In Yerevan, Armenia with $100 you can buy food, pay electrical bills and continue building the newborn country which is under blockade of Turkey, Azerbaijan and *Georgia*. In United States, with minimal wage you can buy a food (inorganic), pay interests, pay taxes, pay residential fees, and get ripped off by some telemarketers and live in a very “safe” and a very “established” country.
I disagree with people who point out only bad views of the Armenia, which eventually creates hate towards the homeland. Thanks for your questions.
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/11/2004 @ 9:50 am
Firstly, Vazgen Sarkisyan is dead so you can indeed go into details if what you say is true — or at least, hint at them. Other comments I have about that I’ll keep to myself…
Now, let’s talk about the minimum wage. In Armenia, the minimum wage stands at $10 a month and not $100 a month. Poverty-related benefits — if you are below the poverty line with kids — are nothing and perhaps you can try to exist on $25 a month with four mouths to feed.
The main point is that $100 a month is NOT enough to live a normal life in Yerevan. You might probably get by on $200 a month if you don’t have to rent an apartment but you will be cold in the winter because you can NOT adequately heat your home in the winter. You will also be eating very basic, high in carbohydrate foods such as potatoes, macaroni and bread.
As 70% of the population does.
You will also not be able to seek medical treatment when you need it — as 65-75% of the population can’t according to official statistics.
And with rising property prices, you will be stuck living with your family even in Yerevan because you can’t even afford a dingy room in a hostel on the surburbs which now costs $2,500 a room to privatize. And for those on stable incomes, mortgages are underdeveloped and last only 5-6 years and so are beyond reach.
Anyway, for those young people living at home in Yerevan they say that a salary of $300 a month is necessary to lead a fairly “normal” life but to lead your typical life that someone in a “normal” job in the west can lead you’re talking probably about $400-500 a month if you have a family to support, clothe and want to bring up with access to medical care and stuff.
Yes, costs of living are lower in Armenia but not as low as you suggest. Also, life is getting more expensive but there is no proportionate rise in salaries which were disproportionately low anyway. Anyway, the point is that what are you saying? That the Diaspora in the west will gladly move to Armenia to work for $100 a month?
I’m waiting with eager anticipation for the huge influx but perhaps I won’t hold my breath.
Of course, I could be wrong. I mean, government officials get a salary of something like $500 a month an dyet can drive around in Mercedes, build new mansions, open cafes around the opera as well as shops and restaurants and be seen with the most expensive girls in Yerevan.
I don’t know, maybe they have some part-time work to supplement their incomes and work from dusk till dawn to support their families. Or, of course, you could be right in everything you say.
Still doesn’t get over the most basic fact of all. No Diasporan Armenian from the United States or Western Europe is going to move to Armenia for $100 a month. Most haven’t moved here for anything less than $1000 a month.
And jobs like that — which require for the most part connections — are in short supply.
Anyway, I know how my friends live in England and I know how my friends live in Armenia. What really gets me is that rather than speak openly about developing the employment / socio-economic situation in Armenia so we can one day make the idea of Diasporan moving to Armenia to live alongside Hayastansi also living fairly decent lives, we try to instead rationalize and explain away the situation.
In reality, Diasporans are NOT moving to Armenia and Hayastantsi are thinking of leaving the Republic for every reason that Katy gave further up the page.
These are the issues we need to deal with for everybody’s sake.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/11/2004 @ 6:04 pm
Onik,
I can guess that you do not live in Armenia, because if you did you would know that Vazgen Sarkisian’s mafia still does exist.
End of discussion.
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/12/2004 @ 12:03 am
Gevorgian, I think that you know that I am in Armenia and that the power of the Sarkisian clan is now very small after the dismissal of Aram Sarkisian as Prime Minister in early 2000. The clans that exist in today’s Armenia are those close to the ruling regime.
However, perhaps unwittingly you have just acknowledged another reason why the Diaspora does not move to Armenia and why many Hayastantsi think of leaving — that is the lack of the rule of law and the existence of the clan structures in Armenia that also mean it is very difficult to establish a business in certain sectors of the economy unless you have connections with the Government.
On this point I will agree with you. The clan structures that existed under Levon Ter Petrosian / Vazgen Sarkisian and Robert Kocharian / Serj Sarkisian are a serious obstacle to the development of democracy and a market economy in Armenia.
You also imply that the rule of law does not exist in Armenia and that an individual’s safety can not be secured in the Republic.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/12/2004 @ 1:26 am
Okay, so let’s get this back on topic because it’s an interesting topic:
> What part can the Diaspora play in the future of Armenia?
A very large one given the small size of the internal Armenian market and the need to attract investment.
> How important are the Diaspora to Armenia?
For the reasons given above, a very important one. We have already seen the scale and impact of Diasporan humanitarian projects in Armenia, even if they have not exactly been implemented in ways that many of us would like (there is the need for more accountability and oversight, for example), and almost everyone considers that Diasporan investment is critical to further economic growth here. Of course, there are also well known problems in this regard.
There’s also an important aspect in terms of market. One of the reasons, for example, that most businessmen in Armenia want the Turkish border open is becayse the internal market is too small for them to develop further and transportation costs need to be reduced anyway. At the same time, for some goods and services — even including culture — there is a *potentially* ready made market — that *could* be larger than that in Armenia — in the Diaspora.
> Do you think Armenians should have a movement to encourage a homecoming (like Israel).
Sure, why not? And of course, there is already one established by the Government to attract those Hayastantsi that left post-1991 back to Armenia. Perhaps this is the main priority. However, I would tend to prefer that living conditions first be improved here rather than create an albeit miniscule influx of Diasporans that would occupy positions well above that of those born here. Then, there is also the issue of dual citizenship or actually citizenship as the main issue is with regards to military service and tax obligations. Basically, the issue is more one of on what terms and hopefully, without discriminating against local Armenians.
On the other hand, as it is unlikely that many Diasporans from the west will come to Armenia (the numbers are insignificant now and will remain so although they will increase) and that even those from the CIS and Middle East will hardly be in their tens of thousands, there probably is no real risk from officially enticing Diasporans to come to Armenia — the main reason for some reluctance to do so in successive governments since independence.
Probably a more interesting exercise, however, is to not only examine the Jewish experience of attracting the Diaspora to Israel but to also examine the experience of attracting the Armenian Diaspora to move to Soviet Armenia. I think that approximately 180,000 Diasporans did so back then and there were problems.
Probably, we will need to examine those problems if any similar plans are implemented in the future.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/12/2004 @ 7:44 pm
Incidentally, the one main argument given against granting dual citizenship is that of course, any removal of a constitutional restriction on dual citizenship does not just apply to Diasporan Armenians. It also applies to local Armenians and some misgivings have been voiced re. potential problems re. military service among local Armenians. I still don’t quite understand these arguments so if someone can clarify them I’m grateful but basically, I’m led to believe that dual citizenship would allow local Armenians to avoid Armenian military service. Again, I don’t quite understand why.
Anyway, I think that one of the main obstacles to attracting many Diasporans to Armenia is the dual citizenship issue but from looking at what is said on this issue, it does not appear that removing the restriction will resolve the issues. Even if the restriction on dual citizenship is removed from the constitution, Diasporans who take citizenship will still have to undertake their obligations as a citizen which includes military service and payment of taxes [is there also an issue here with reciprocal tax obligations between countries if no corresponding agreement has been signed by the governments of those countries?].
However, I do not agree with passing a law that lays out different obligations for a citizen of Armenia in the Diaspora and for citizens born here. It would devalue the notion of citizenship and country.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/12/2004 @ 7:53 pm
Incidentally, I believe that there is still a very large role that a Diaspora existing outside of Armenia has to play and that the 10-year visas/passports are a good compromise to citizenship even if the constitutional restriction on dual citizenship is removed.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/12/2004 @ 7:55 pm
One of the major reasons why I think anyone could believe that it is easier to “get by” in Armenia than it is in the U.S. is the family networking that exists in Armenia is nearly impossible to create in the United States.
The flow of American work life and the method that Americans have used to create their homes in the last 50-70 years has made it nearly impossible to rely upon one’s family in the way that IS possible in Armenia.
Yes, in the United States an individual needs to make $25,000-$30,000 a year to live relatively comfortably. (Unfortunately most need a university education to do this and thereby create debt for themselves!) But let’s let the numbers speak for themselves:
UNITED STATES:
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $37,800 (2003 est.)
Population below poverty line: 12% (2003 est.)
Unemployment rate: 6.2% (2003)
ARMENIA:
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $3,900 (2003 est.)
Population below poverty line: 50% (2002 est.)
Unemployment rate: 20% (2001 est.)
(all from the CIA World FactBook)
Comment by k8t — 9/14/2004 @ 1:26 am
Good point about the family network, Katy, and yes, it is an important reason why some Armenians can survive. Of course, if you are without that extended family or if they are also poor, you’re in trouble. There is also one other problem associated with this family network, however, and that is in my opinion it is one of the ways in which corruption (and certanly nepotism) exists and functions in Armenia which means that it is not as easy as applying for a job and rising up as your career progresses. It also means thatin many cases, only distant family or friends get a look in for jobs. This family network also extends to regions and circles as well. For example, I was told last week that one manager in a very well known bank in Yerevan prefers to employ people from around his native Artashat (Ararat Region).
However, while I agree with all of this and there’s not doubt that as soon as the right job comes up in England I will probably return because to be honest, I do not consider that Armenia is a suitable place for me to bring my child up (already we are finding it difficult to navigate through a corrupt medical and education system), I think that we’re missing the point of Matt’s initial questions.
That is, should the Diaspora be enticed to return? Perhaps what we’re both saying is that the time is not yet right and too many problems exist to make this likely in the forseeable future except for small numbers from the west and more from the CIS / Middle East but still nothing like a major influx that will have much of a dent on life here.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/14/2004 @ 1:43 am
So what would it take for the Diasporans to move?
The RA must offer some incentives.
If anyone is interested, I wrote something a few years back on the Armenian repatriation effort that the Soviets tried out after Stalin left. It is called “Great Expectations” if that gives you a hint.
Please let me know if you’d like a copy and I can e-mail it to you.
Comment by k8t — 9/14/2004 @ 5:59 am
Katy, I think that this sounds very interesting. Can’t you stick a copy online and post a link?
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/14/2004 @ 6:29 am
Thanks Onnik. Unfortunately I don’t want to put it online in case someone tries to steal my work. Google is a great but dangerous tool!
I’ll e-mail a copy to you.
Thanks,
katy
Comment by k8t — 9/14/2004 @ 8:47 am
hrmp, “great expectations”? like in the movie?
please send me a copy too blogs@gevorgian.com
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/14/2004 @ 10:06 am
I have one article about repatriates from the soviet era who have now returned to France. Can’t remember when I wrote this but think it was 2001 or maybe 2002.
FULL CIRCLE
KHARBERD, Armenia — In 1947, after spending much of their early life in the Middle East and France, Garabed Tatossian and Satenik Kuzarian moved to Soviet Armenia. When the newlyweds heard that the Soviet authorities were eager to attract the Diaspora to Armenia, they jumped at the chance.
Now, more than a decade after the Soviet Union imploded, sixty-year-old Maurice Tatossian says his parents made a mistake.
Full article:
http://www.oneworld.am/journalism/articles/full_circle.htm
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/14/2004 @ 5:12 pm
—-
Actually, I am thinking about moving. Not completely, but to purchase a house or an apartment in erevan. There was a very nice development out in Vahagni village, I still get call from this sales lady about it.
To be honest, I never thought I would even consider this, I left in the early 90’s and never looked back. But now that I see some changes for the better in the country, I think well, perhaps owning a property and business down the road is not a bad idea.
For me, the problem is twofold:
1) Dual citizenship. I will not invest if I dont now that I can legally own the title, as simple as that. Even though there are ways around it, I don’t really want to go into it.
2)Karabax problem. It has to come to a conclusion of sorts. Even though my friends always bring the cyprus argument, I don’t really think it will develop quite similarly to that. There needs to be a meaningfull resolution.
Both points are getting mucho air time these days, so I think there will be a closure one way or another.
–
Comment by Tim — 9/16/2004 @ 12:24 am
You will find very few people who migrated to Armenia during the Soviet times and are still there. Most of them have left the country and are in the US or in the European countries.
For the majority of people the economic needs are superior to anything else. If you cannot feed your family then you will try to find the opportunity to do so elsewhere. Patriotic slogans become meaningless.
Comment by Hrair — 9/16/2004 @ 12:26 am
Can’t you own land with the 10-year passport? If so, I know that the thing only has a life of 10 years but unless you’re really stepping on someone’s toes I can’t see that the President would turn down a renewal. By then, of course, there would also be dual citizenship and hopefully, a more stable political and socio-economic situation in the country.
I disagree with the issue of Karabagh, however. I don’t think that it has come to a conclusion and in a region like the S. Caucasus anything and everything is possible, including perhaps even a resumption of hostilities 5-10 years down the line.
Basically, the situation in the region is NOT reliant on the three countries that make up the S. Caucasus, it is really reliant on how the US views the region and whether Russia is still abel to exert influence. Then, the considerations of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia mean something.
Karabagh and the closed border with Turkey will always be important issues and the situation might well change for both. Armenia and Karabagh are not Cyprus as long as the border remains closed because quite simply, we are landlocked and it makes a difference. Cyprus has the sea and the division of the island does not affect transport routes as it does here.
Anyway, the economy is one issue to consider when moving here and it is true that for most Diasporan Armenians from the US and Europe they automatically find themselves in a higher economci close than the countries they left. However, if you need to find work in Armenia, you’re in trouble.
As I said in an earlier post, only a few Diasporan Armenians have the contacts necessary to get good western-paying jobs in Armenia. Others will have to open businesses in a very limited and economically poor market. There is also one other factor.
The internal political environment is not stable and they way we are going, unless things change dramatically, there is the potential for real problems when the issue of succession to Kocharian comes up in 2008. In fact, the first signs of any trouble might well materialize in 2007 or possibly earlier.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 1:54 am
Tim’s comments about buying property and spending some time each year in Armenia seems to be the most sensible one for most Diasporans, specially if they can also examine the market for economic possibilities.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 2:18 am
BTW: Tim, you say that you left in the 90s and never looked back. I’m assuming therefore that you gave up your Armenian citizenship and took another country’s. Well, I suppose at least you followed the law. I know many Armenians leave Armenia and take foreign citizenship but DON’T renounce their Armenian citizenship. Also incidentally, the Hovnanian village seems to be attracting more Hayastantsi that left and now are retunring with money than Diasporan (non Russian-Armenian Diaspora that is). I actually don’t like the houses there or the idea of a walled complex but would at least say that the houses are actually a bargain compared to what house prices are doing in Armenia at the moment and are about the same as a large new apartment downtown. Personally, I would always prefer a house and the $300-600,000 tag on a tuf mansion formerly owned by this or that official, I’ll never be able to afford. I think Hovnanian’s houses are quite reasonably priced in this context.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 5:16 am
Hovnanian project appeals to me because of normal considerations; security, promise to arrange for a good school where kids would be exposed to the
culture a bit more than in a sunday school. I don’t think I would personally spend more than couple of weeks in any given year, but my family is excited about it. The price we were quoted (300k with the choice of a lot and view) is a
bargain for the house of this size and services.
The association fee is acceptable also.
Also, another consideration which is important is
if something goes wrong over there I can take them to the court over here (US), which gives me a leverage.
The reason I contributed to this blog is because I share some of the experience of the 1st generation Armenians. My father uprooted his family in 60’s and brougght us over to Armenia. I never want to pass a judgement on my old man, but it was a very idealistic thing to do. I don’t think he ever regretted it, their generation was made from a different material.
Gotta run, will read this tomorrow. Interesting discussion, by the way.
Comment by Tim — 9/16/2004 @ 6:03 am
I’m not thinking of buying into the Hovnanian Community but I understand your reasoning. They’re also building a shopping mall there which will have franchises such as Ikea etc included (according to the salesman).
Price is more than I thought, however. Weren’t they meant to be $170,000 or is that the entry level house design? What do you get for $300k?
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 7:22 am
Ikea Boy,
One thing diaspora needs to understand that Armenia is not a pretty woman, that Armenia will never be a “democratic” state…
Each of us is a General of his own Army. I think this is a problem of the true Armenians… We all want to have our OWN rules, but we forget that we are building a democracy…
I think right now Armenia is on it’s right route, which is, do business with Russia and not with the US or Europe. Once Armenia does business (not economical business) with the west, then that means someone is a winner… Someone who is in argument with Armenians for centuries. True Armenians know who that somone is
We know our enemy, and we’re not afraid of foreign enemies anymore…
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/16/2004 @ 1:19 pm
Wait a minute, Gevorgian…
“Armenia will bever be a “democratic” state…”
BUT
“…we are building a democracy…”
Regardless, you’ve hit the nail on the head, perhaps. Who the hell would would want to be a citizen of a country which is not a democracy, where the rule of law is selectively applied or not at all and where ven, perhaps, that the constitution will mean less next year than it even does now…
Like I said, mainly CIS / Middle Eastern Armenians because that’s what they’re used to.
For Armenians from the US and Western Europe, Armenia represents regression…
If you’re a citizen and want to vote, it means nothing. Muscle determines the outcome of elections.
If you’re a businessman, who has the stronger government connections will determine any legal hassle or conflict in the courts.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 1:34 pm
And btw: I’ve never even been into an Ikea in the West and whether it comes to Armenia is meaningless to me. However, for 99% of the Armenians from the US here, it is one of the main things they would like in Armenia. That can be heard all the time from them — more so than any calls for an equal society, the rule of law or democracy.
Unfortunately, the Diaspora seems to be living in a dreamworld when it comes to determining what is really needed to ensure Armenia’s future. And supporting the establishment of an authoritarian state where the select apllication of the law, use of thugs and crooked cops determine the survival of the regime is also not where Armenia should be heading.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 1:39 pm
Well,
“Ikea Boy” is from the movie “Fight Club”… He tells “Ikea Boy” to the person who dreams of democracy, who follows to the laws and all the corporate life… Who does what he is told to do.
I don’t want to see Armenia as a toy for United States. See what is hapening in Georgia… And watch out what will happen next in Georgia.
I thinink I made myself clear that I have Pro-Armenian and Russian orientation. So stop telling me your dreams of “democracy”.
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/16/2004 @ 4:13 pm
Somewhat ironically, it is most of the population’s dream to have “democracy” in Armenia and I always find it amazing that the most vocal critics of “democracy” in Armenia tend to be living outside of the Republic in democratic states and reaping the benefits of that situation.
As for what I’m telling you, I’m just quoting two statements from one short comment by you that contradict each other. And perhaps you’ve pointed out the most serious problem with the Diaspora of all — that is, this ultra-nationalistic, idealized perception of where Armenia is as a country and the ability to criticize anyone who wants to build a propsperous, democratic society albeit by criticizing from the comfort of an already established (if still evolving) democratic society.
And btw: “Ikea Boy” has never been in an Ikea store once in his life but hears from the Diaspora that it would be the one thing that would make “Life inthe homeland” better. Still, if your arguments can only revolve around such attempts at labeling people (I have some for you incidentally, but Matt would be upset that both you and I descend to such things)…
Incidentally, Hakob, what one earth is behind your www.gevorgian.com site that would make anyone want to register. And I’m still interested in hearing what trouble you’re in with the Sarkisyan family. Thing is, you speak like a Diasporan who’s been in Glendale all your life and not a Hayastantsi who left one undemocratic regime but propagandizes for another.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/16/2004 @ 4:37 pm
—-
Whats wrong with IKEA ?
It’s a great store,
good selection, and you can’t beat their swedish
meatballs in the cafeteria. If one was to open in
Armenia it would provide a good employment to 300+
people and it will force the smaller shops to
offer better service.
Another aspect is the IKEA tries really hard to
insource some of their purchasing to their host
countries, I forget the figures, but it was substantial. This could lead to local furniture industry being exposed first in Armenia and then
throughout IKEAs stores. As a matter of fact, most of IKEAs production is in Eastern Europe nowadays, bulk is in Poland I believe.
I like the store, thats why I know a bit about it.
Anyways, Hovananians development has a range of prices, they start from $150k starter homes to $350 top of the line.
They are made out of ‘tuf’ but painted to look like a clapboard house, which is a bit silly.
The designs are identical to a typical Jersey sub-division. Not sure of how they are in terms of compliance with the codes, then again, not sure there are enforceable codes in Armenia anyway.
When they sort out the dual citizenship mess I will be on the plane next day to buy one of those.
I pretty much made up my mind already
Have a good day,
—-
Comment by Tim — 9/16/2004 @ 11:15 pm
Ikea-boy,
My website is for my friends and my family members
About Sarkisian: He has killed many people. His mafia still exist (all of his “fedayee” friends still control the most strategic resources of the Armenia. Robert Kocharian has tried to destroy his mafia, but as you can see, the support from the west was strong enough to chill shit process…
Also why do you make yourself as somone who does who lived in Armenia for his lifetime… I think you’re either a “Hnchag” or “Ramkavar” party member, but definately not ARF
So stop talking like you know everything about Armenia. You know things that you’re told to know… And you do things that you’re told to do.
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/17/2004 @ 12:08 am
Tim, thanks for the info. Not my cup of tea — both Ikea and the Hovnanian houses — but I do have to admit that they are reasonably priced (the houses).
Gevorgian, can I suggest that you try to comment and add to discourse and not propagandize and attack.
You also know very well, that the Sarkisyan-related clans no longer have any power. It is the Kocharian-Serzh Sarkisyan affiliated clans that control the economy.
You’re spreading msinformation to push a political agenda. Basically, the system in place is pretty much the same as under LTP with the exception, perhaps, that corruption is increasing since 2003.
As for me, I’m not affiliated with any political party and have never been a member nor have ever supported any political party in Armenia or the Diaspora although I did work for 2.5 years for an ARF newspaper in the states.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 12:46 am
Oh, and Gevorgian, name which of Sarkisyan’s fedayee friends control what strategic areas of the economy. I’m willing to discuss this corruption if you can shed light on these people. If you can’t names names then I tend to suspect that you just make up everything you write.
I willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and wait to hear who you consider these people are.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 12:55 am
Well, sure I will tell you few names…
Manvel Grigorian — Owns the great portion of the Armenian budget (all the profits from energy sales go to his pocket).
Chanj (fly) nickname — He is brother of Manvel and he is assigned as controler of Armenian Nuclear Power Plant.
I can name few others, but what is the point? Am I testifying to you? Do you have power to go against those people? Or do you think I am making all this up?
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/17/2004 @ 1:05 am
Two names you mention and as we know Manvel Grigorian, while still controlling a large part of Armavir, is not the man he used to be since Yerkrapah lost its political clout after the death of Vazgen. On the other hand, Manvel Grigorian has contributed to the division of Yerkrapah into pro-presidential and opposition sides. While it is true that he remained “neutral” during the 2003 Presidential Elections, Greta Sarkisyan rounded up on him and actually virtually attacked him for now supporting the President and forgetting “the memory of Vazgen.”
An interesting issue with Manvel Grigorian, however, and I don’t know if this is true (perhaps someone can confirm) is that Aram Asatrian was effectively kicked out of Armenia after upsetting him in a Christmas show. I say this is interesting if only because Aram Asatrian is soon back into the country to give a concert.
Anyway, Manvel Grigorian is not the man he used to be and I would suspect — although do not know — that he is probably aligned with the President now. I don’t think Kocharian cares about kicking these people out as long as they can be brought on board. They certainly don’t represent a threat to his power.
Chanj, I don’t know about. I’ll look into it. They’re certainly not the big fry in Armenia at the moment. They’re we’re talking the Lfik Samo’s, Dodi Gagho’s, Nemetz Rubo’s etc. And of course, the allegation is that the man who controls them allis the same man who masterminded Kocharian’s re-election — Serzh Sarkisyan.
Anyway, the point is that yes, Grigorian is still there but I don’t think he constitutes a Sarkisyan mafia any more. If anythign, Vazgen’s own mother accuses him of betraying her son.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 1:48 am
But… let’s get this on track.
Katy and I think that there are many issues that will prevent the US and European Diaspora from living in Armenia and that Middle Eastern / CIS Armenians are more likley to fit in with the present and prevailing environment in Armenia (correct me if I’m wrong, Katy).
Gevorgian won’t come back because he fears for his safety from clans that still operate in an environment where the law does not function and where most key areas of the economy function only under their control.
Tim is interested in coming to live in Armenia, even if on a temporary basis at first but cites recourse to the courts in the US as a reason for buying property on the Hovnanian estate.
So, can we therefore conclude that the rule of law is one of the most important factors in determining any move by Armenians from Europe and the US?
I suppose my point would be that evolving democracy is vital for the law to function and also evolve. As we know, we have both good and bad laws but whether they’re good or bad doesn’t really matter. They didn’t function under LTP and they don’t function under Kocharian.
Corruption is another side issue linked to both democracy AND the rule of law.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 3:56 am
Onnik wrote: “Gevorgian won’t come back because he fears for his safety from clans that still operate in an environment where the law does not function and where most key areas of the economy function only under their control.”
That is not true, I will come back to Armenia very soon. I don’t have to say why and when will that take an effort.
Trust me, US govt is somehow connected with the Vazen Sarkisian Mafia. I can’t tell you more of my case, but I’ll tell you this. My case was rejected by the Department of Justice of United States because they did not believe that during Vazgen Sarkisian regime there were abuses by the government. Thus I can say the following: If Kocharian is not doing business with USA then Kocharian is not doing business with the supporters of the so called Opposition… Additionally, We all know who Bazeyan was, what he has done… People have very very good memory… It’s just the media who is spreading rumors about Kocharian and making him a bad guy. I respect Kocharian and I hope that after 6-10 years Armenia will be the strongest country, and it would not need the dollars of the Diaspora… Few million dollars of the AGBU (which we don’t how they spent it…)
Onnik, since you’re working with AGBU, tell me more about the 3 million dollars that New York Life insurance gave to AGBU… Where exactly will that money go?
Comment by Gevorgian — 9/17/2004 @ 6:27 am
Firstly, Gevorgian, apologies, I must have misunderstood what you wrote above:
“First off, I would like to mention that I am a citizen of the Republic of Armenia and the problem, if we can label it that way, is very personal. My family had to escape from Vazgen Sarkisian regime in 1998. I believe that it is still insecure for me to return back to my homeland.”
As for Kocharian being a good guy, that’s your opinion but it’s not that of many here. Even those who voted for him in the Presidential Elections openly admitted that they didn’t like him and want him gone BUT… that they disliked the opposition more…
That I think is the crux of the matter in Armenia today. There are few names — existing or emerging — that fill one with much hope. The Cabinet really leaves you with a feeling of despair although I guess, the Dashnak Ministries do seem to be keeping their noses clean and doing their jobs. However, Hovik Abrahamian, Vartan Ayvazian and all the Orinats Yerkir ministers are either worrying or plain ridiculous. The Parliament’s makeup is even more worrying.
I also don’t believe that the US supported the opposition here given that while they were concerend with last year’s elections and the handling of the recent protests, there is nothing to indicate that they were pushing the opposition forward. On the contrary, we (admittedly) think that it was John Ordway who was quoted as an unamed diplomatic source in Yerevan who said that the opposition really had no idea or alternate platform.
There was no “green light” given to the opposition as there was in Georgia and my personal opinion is that both the US and Europe would rather BOTH Kocharian and Aliyev in power if only to continue negotiations on Karabagh.
Bazeyan… I can’t even remember him as Mayor and about my only recollection of him in Yerkrapah was when AIM magazine did some lightweight interview explaining why they had emerged as a political force in Armenia and probaby making them into some kind of progressive development for Armenia. I do, however, have some vague recollections of Yerkrapah being involved in attacks on Jehovah Witnesses and human rights activists.
And of course, Bazeyan has a few things to answer about the allocation of green areas in central Yerevan for cafes built by officials although not as much as Robert Nazaryan.
As for the AGBU, I’m not working with them and can not answer your question. I’m assuming you mean the Melkonian Institute and I’m not following that other than thinking that if they do open up a school here in Armenia, it isn’t such a bad idea. I also have no connection with AGBU NY — just that AGBU London supported the end of one stage of my ongoing project on social vulnerability in Armenia for which I am very grateful — as are those vulnerable families that have benefitted from it, including one woman who would have probably died had not the AGBU’s support of that work taken me back and back again to one hostel where she was literally wasting away.
Thanks to them, I was informed of her condition and thanks to Emil Danielyan of RFE/RL who contacted the Minsitry of Health (who incidentally, responded immediately) she received treatment for TB. And thanks to this work, some Diasporan Armenians went and helped five of the families I think.
Unfortunately, some other things happened after that which makes her case ongoing and necessary of monitoring and it’s going off the point but basically, I stay away from politics (well, away from being directly involved in party or Diasporan politics) but am grateful to anyone who supports my work and so far that has been the ARF-East Coast from 1999-2003 and the AGBU London for six months straddling 2003 and earlier this year.
Regardless, I am independent and plan on remaining that way. I haveno problem working with Dashnaks on certain issues or the AGBU on others. Ultimately, it is the issues that matter and not who is seen to be pushing them. Unfortunately, things seldom work like that here or in the Diaspora and I think this also needs to change.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 7:52 am
Okay, I got it… not the Melkonian but this insurance settlement. No idea. Didn’t know they received anything. Am too busy working long hours to follow all the news. But why ask me? Like I’m the AGBU NY Office? As I said, they merely supported my work for 6 months just as the Dashnaks did for almost 3 years.
More significantly, all of this is relevent to the topic of whether the Diaspora should come to Armenia or how it can help Armenia?
Well, I suppose it is in a way. I mean, helping Armenia does not mean helping and supporting the President. I firmly believe that the development of a stable, sustainable Armenia first comes from within society and that’s where the emphasis of our support should be. The President, after all, is or should be merely the figurehead that represents not the population who have or should have the power to elect or remove him (or her) from office. When that’s sorted, a lot more will fall into place.
Cheers,
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 8:00 am
The last paragraph didn’t make sense on second reading but basically, what I’m trying to say is this. The Diaspora can help Armenia by doing just that — helping Armenia and not always supporting the President whoever that might be and seeminglu only being interested in having their photos taken with him.
I remember being in London when LTP was in power and raising issues about attacks on the media in Armenia and I remember being there when the ARF was banned but still, the Diaspora as a whole continued to support LTP. Now, after a regression in democracy and media freedom, the removal of A1 Plus, Poghos Poghosian etc etc we’re still doing the same.
In order to propell Armenia forward we must stop thinking about political agendas but more sit around and support where necessary but raise our voices when something is wrong.
Presidents change but the country will always be here. Presidents are also elected by the people. Sort out Armenia’s problems but supporting the development of a democratic and civil society and a lot more will fall into place to ensure the growth and future of the country.
Or else, we’ll be making the same mistakes under the next President as well. I mean, in all but autocratic countries or dictatorships, what generally propels countries forward is dialogue, debate, argument and protest. That’s how it’s been and that’s how it always will be.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 8:11 am
And btw: apart from two key issues — package or phased settlement on Karabagh and the way an opposition is handled (ie LTP banned the ARF whereas now we merely have them beaten or arrested) — there is very little to differentiate the two regimes. The system in place is pretty muh a continuation of the same. On a brighter note, that means that economic policies have been continued. ie. Hrant Bagratian was recently credited by the Prime Minister of being responsible for the economic growth that has averaged 5% since 1994 or is it 1995, I forget.
Otherwise, the key issues of the day — except for Karabagh — are the same: democracy, civil society development, human rights, integration into regional and world structures etc and all of which will determine the long term future of the country and whether the Diaspora has a stable environment in which to return to.
Comment by Onnik Krikorian — 9/17/2004 @ 8:18 am
“Katy and I think that there are many issues that will prevent the US and European Diaspora from living in Armenia and that Middle Eastern / CIS Armenians are more likley to fit in with the present and prevailing environment in Armenia (correct me if I’m wrong, Katy).”
I’m with you!
Comment by k8t — 9/17/2004 @ 11:11 am